Air conditioners, the vent ducts are not working!!! - Page 8

kevinmiles · 09-13-2013, 12:13 PM

First, to HDDECKER ...... the weather in PQ has been crappy (hot, humid, rainy, now cool and rainy). The only thing worse than the weather here is the politics - but don't get me started!
Now to ATCguy ..... that's really good feedback and I hope that the Dutchmen guy goes back and follows up seriously on the issues we see on this website. I have my doubts though, because about a month ago I sent an email to their customer service dept highlighting the level of dissatisfaction brewing and strongly suggested they have a look at this site. Sadly, I never got a response.

Infinityrver · 09-13-2013, 11:06 PM

Tom (ATCguy),

Very nice write up of what you conveyed to the sales representative for Dutchmen trailer campers. That was exceptional. I'm sure it was a feel good conversation between what you felt was a liason between you and the heads of Dutchmen. I sincerely appreciate your effort.

Here is the problem. If Dutchmen admits to this issue across the board then, they will own it and will have to pay dealers to rectify the problem.

There are people that are on this forum that have voiced their opinion of the air conditioning issue. There are also, people reading this forum and not saying anything. There are many people that are not reading this forum and are having issues. Again not saying anything.

Example: 100 units Voltage and Infinity's are sold. 4 people on a forum are voicing their concerns and dissatisfaction. 4 other people have written to Dutchmen with their dissatisfaction. 12 people are complaining to their dealers. 80 people aren't saying anything.

My point is: that Dutchmen CEO's look at the ratio of people complaining versus not. If there are high numbers not complaining then its not an issue........just isolated issues. CEO's at Dutchmen use the head-in-the-sand philosophy.

I personally thought that when Dutchmen started producing Voltage & Infinity that they were looking forward to a long lasting relationship with more expensive unit buyers. I was wrong. They do not have the ability to take care of situations that have risen with these units. They are definitely out of their league.

sundancer 87 · 09-21-2013, 07:51 PM

Where can I get a job where my work is not inspected nor is it expected to be spot on? I know, a job where they make Voltage toy haulers.

I was similar to other Voltage owners, I had an A/C cooled breese running between the roof and ceiling. So today I decided it was cool enough in northeast Oklahoma to take a look at the infamous Dutchman ductwork. After pulling the A/C unit it took only seconds to see the problem. Extremely poor fitment of the ductwork to A/C output air distribution box and poor fitment of the duct work to ceiling/roof space.

It's simply amazing how a person that works in better conditions than outside in the sun and wind can screw up an important and easy job as fitting and sealing the duct work. The duct work fits loosely between the ceiling and roof and the tape job to seal it off looks as if a fitter (can't call the person a mechanic or technician), may have been given exactly two minutes to do this half-assed job.

All corners lacked proper sealing tape, the horizontal openings where the duct work entered the ceiling/roof space had loose tape because the tape was placed over saw dust and other loose contaminants that lay in the air box.

I just don't understand how a person that is charged with this job can feel as if they did a good job. I don't understand how a manufacturer can let something like this pass QC. I don't understand why someone doesn't have any pride in their workmanship. This taping and fitting process isn't really a high tech process. We redo it in our driveways and on the street so why can't a manufacturer get this right?

I wonder how a dealer would like us to have them pull A/C units during the PDI? I'm sure that wouldn't go over very well with them at all.

Some of the little stuff is understandable but shouldn't be acceptable. I have caulking on my unit where caulking isn't even needed. Probably Dutchman gave a person a case of caulking and told them to caulk every seam they see. Is it really necessary to caulk the outside of the shower frame if the inside is caulked? The water is supposed to stay inside and not infiltrate to the outside so caulking on the outside isn't necessary. Is this a lack of confidence or someone's idea of double protection?

I would do assembly line QC for Dutchman for free just to show them the stupidity of some of their processes. The quality of workmanship would go way up or I'd be fired the first day because someone had to do their job and stand behind it.

I'm not PO'd at the manufacturer nor am I overly upset when I have to repair, reengineer and rebuild their mediocre RVs, I'm just glad I have the ability to do so and not have to waste time at a dealer to have these things done. Really though, why should we have to take up the slack for Dutchman?

Infinityrver · 09-22-2013, 01:01 AM

Sundancer87, it's just like we were on the same roof taking off the same air conditioning unit. Absolutely, no pride in the work that was done by the fitter (I like your words). Those open corners in the ducting, below the squirrel cage, blew me away.

Reading your threads, I know you don't mind workin' on this stuff. I did it and got it all sealed up. I personally would have rather had that next three or four fingered adult beverage instead of climbing the ladder to take the air conditioning unit off..........I'm workin' on makin' up for lost time on those adult beverages

.

sundancer 87 · 09-22-2013, 01:15 AM

Maybe we could become guest QC people at Dutchman. Make the big bucks and have those adult beverages, for lunch!!

Or, maybe they would let us monitor the building of our next unit to make sure the visually challenged didn't work on them.

GOLDENYEARS · 09-22-2013, 02:56 PM

If there Is someone following our threads (Jackie?) I would hope they would pay attention to the threads with a whole lot of posts and or views/visits. That person may also want to pay close attention to those problems that are of a safety or life threatening matter.

As the OP of this thread (with over 5200 views and over 140 comments or posts I am amazed that someone from Dutchmen has not contacted one of us. I am not tooting my own horn (yes I am) but others as well as my self have figured out what the problem is and we have fixed our own problems as well as suggested to others the procedures to re-engineer and fix an other wise non functioning air conditioning unit.

By the way I have talked to several folks from Dutchmen customer service with zero positive results. In fact one person asked "what do you want us to do, redesign the unit" .

I am not having any warm fuzzies about Dutchmen. Perhaps someone from Keystone would care to weigh in on this.

eightydo · 09-22-2013, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOLDENYEARS

If there Is someone following our threads (Jackie?) I would hope they would pay attention to the threads with a whole lot of posts and or views/visits. That person may also want to pay close attention to those problems that are of a safety or life threatening matter.

As the OP of this thread (with over 5200 views and over 140 comments or posts I am amazed that someone from Dutchmen has not contacted one of us. I am not tooting my own horn (yes I am) but others as well as my self have figured out what the problem is and we have fixed our own problems as well as suggested to others the procedures to re-engineer and fix an other wise non functioning air conditioning unit.

By the way I have talked to several folks from Dutchmen customer service with zero positive results. In fact one person asked "what do you want us to do, redesign the unit" .

I am not having any warm fuzzies about Dutchmen. Perhaps someone from Keystone would care to weigh in on this.

With a comment like that they need to redesign the STAFF.

Voltage Traveler · 09-22-2013, 05:29 PM

ATCguy,

Did you talk to Nat or Tim? We spent a lot of time with Nat, whom we were informed was the lead Voltage designer. He was enthusiastic about striving to always improve the line and each year they were implementing changes as identified by customers and their own use of the line.

We ordered a Voltage 3905 at the Hershey show and chose Voltage partly because of the residential style duct AC unit, among many other features. Our current Cyclone 3210 has the traditional style RV AC which is uncomfortably loud, and is always running due to the lower R value of the entire unit. So hopefully Dutchman has made improvements, otherwise it will be on the roof for me day one... I hate to be hot...

Based on the comments, I am going to take tools to measure the airflow during the PDI, in November... I'll post the results... See how receptive CW is to pulling the main AC unit too if the flow is poor...

sundancer 87 · 09-22-2013, 05:56 PM

You'll get air flow out of the duct work. How much v what it is supposed to be is another matter. Without a base number to compare your readings against there isn't really any way to know if you have leaks in the duct work.

I measured flow at the outlets with a meter and measured air flow out of the puck light holes with the back of my hand.

Without a comparison you probably will have a difficult time convincing the dealer the air flow is poor. My guess is they will say there is air flowing and that's that. Good luck with getting them to pull the A/C, seriously.

Even after sealing the air distribution box I still have differences in air flow between the discharge vents. Albeit more air flow but a difference between two vents that I surmise are on the same run or duct. This leads me to wonder if further air leaks are in the runs of the duct work. It makes me wonder if the duct run is continous or sectioned together along the ceiling. If they are sectioned I'm sure the connections are probably loose and poorly taped just as the distribution box was. In this regard there isn't an easy fix without pulling the ceiling panels or roof. That would be an extreme measure at best.

Hopefully Dutchman has resolved this issue, only time will tell and your reports after you take delivery of the unit.

sundancer 87 · 09-22-2013, 07:32 PM

I peaked my own curiosity about the air flow difference between discharge vents. To Dutchman's consideration I think I have to give them a plus on the duct work runs to the various discharge vents.

Some basic history here, I live full time in my hauler so I don't cool the garage nor do I cool the bedroom since it has its own A/C. I'm solo and the Raider in the garage is from Arizona so she's happy with a little heat. I do have a small amount of air that discharges from the zone 1 A/C unit into the zone 2 A/C. Hardly measureable but it is there. Additionally, I have installed a larger return air vent directly below the intake on the A/C unit.

What I do cool is the livingroom space and the bathroom. I have sealed off the duct runs to the bedroom and garage discharge vents.

The duct run appears to be in an H pattern. The left leg of the H provides air movement to the left side of the garage and the left side of the bedroom and of course the livingroom. The right side of the H does the same service except it adds the bathroom discharge.

I measured air flow (feet/minute), at the four discharge vents in the livingroom. I removed all of the deflectors from those four and in the bathroom.

The measurement on the left side of the run was 1800 f/m on both the front and rear discharge vents.

The measurement on the right side of the run was 1200 f/m on both the front and rear discharge units.

I measured the bathroom discharge vent and suprisingly enough it was 500 f/m. Add this measurement to the right side and the total f/m is very close to the left side.

That answers my question as to whether the duct work run is continous and/or sealed properly.

I pulled the four puck light that are adjacent to the four livingroom vents. Another surprise, no measureable air flow from the puck light holes. As far as the bigger air return to the A/C unit, I have 150 f/m going into that intake. I didn't measure the original return intakes because I figure those two equal the larger one regarding air flow.

In conclusion, the duct work runs appears to be sealed and adequate for discharging cool air. However, the big failure is located under the A/C at the air distribution box. If Dutchman would address that issue that would be one big complaint off their books.

Infinityrver · 09-22-2013, 11:31 PM

Voltage Traveler,

Most of the Voltage owners on this forum appear to like their rigs. Again, the main complaint, as you know is the air unit. And that, like Sundancer87 says, is directly beneath the squirrel cage into the distribution box.

So, be diligent in your PDI and please let them know that the air conditioning is a trouble area.

Voltage Traveler · 09-23-2013, 06:01 PM

We have been through this before with other rigs. The are always little things that will need to be corrected and many things we will modify to meet our needs.

I'll post the results of our PDI... Still very excited about getting the Voltage!

GOLDENYEARS · 09-24-2013, 11:14 PM

No offense intended Voltage Traveler, but having an air conditioner not working or installed properly and leaving it up to the owner to repair is not my idea of a minor thing to be corrected or modified. However, someone may have caught on that this air conditioning thing needs corrected and a service bulletin has been sent to dealers to make the corrections on units not yet sold and to notify owners at least still under warranty and how to fix the problem. How else you going to build brand loyality.

Voltage Traveler · 09-25-2013, 04:12 AM

Tough crowd... :-)

Goldenyears: in complete agreement. I'm trying to stay optimistic that the AC unit won't need addressed day one. And frankly I'll be upset if it does..I hate to be hot.. Unfortunately my expectations are not high and we are already jumping brands from a Heartland Cyclone to a soon, pending delivery date, Voltage because of problems I hope are not repeated with Dutchmen. Also, I've never had good results from the dealers fixing anything, at least to what I consider acceptable.

My comments was in reference to Infinityrver, that we haven't lost all hope with our Voltage order yet, but expect to spend a large amount of time during the PDI. Unfortunately it's going to be cold during the PDI which won't help the AC discussions. I'll post how the PDI goes...

GOLDENYEARS · 09-25-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltage Traveler

Tough crowd... :-)

Goldenyears: in complete agreement. I'm trying to stay optimistic that the AC unit won't need addressed day one. And frankly I'll be upset if it does..I hate to be hot.. Unfortunately my expectations are not high and we are already jumping brands from a Heartland Cyclone to a soon, pending delivery date, Voltage because of problems I hope are not repeated with Dutchmen. Also, I've never had good results from the dealers fixing anything, at least to what I consider acceptable.

My comments was in reference to Infinityrver, that we haven't lost all hope with our Voltage order yet, but expect to spend a large amount of time during the PDI. Unfortunately it's going to be cold during the PDI which won't help the AC discussions. I'll post how the PDI goes...

Voltage traveler: Had I known then what I know now, when I picked up my rig and did the PDI I would have every access door, panel, shrouds, etc pulled. I would then get my borescope, flashlight, mirrors, camera etc... and do a through check of every crack and crevice.

I should have known though. Our previous rig was a Heartland product also. We had a 2010 Big Horn 3670RL. Not a bad rig, it had its problems.(in the unseen areas, behind panels etc is where they put all the sawdust, dirt, etc. The coax connecters were put on with something like vice grips or pliers. Had to replace all of the connecters. And now with this current rig, 3750fl the air conditioner had to be addressed. OH WELL, at least I am getting experience.

Sinecure · 09-25-2013, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltage Traveler

<snip>Unfortunately it's going to be cold during the PDI which won't help the AC discussions. I'll post how the PDI goes...

That shouldn't really make a difference. None of us are having problems with our AC's not blowing cold air, it's that none of it is actually reaching the vents. You should still be able to put the AC fan on HIGH and check each vent. There should be a nice flow of air from them, and if any feel like little-to-nothing is flowing through the vent, then have the dealer pull the AC from the roof and seal up the ducts correctly. For added measure you could have them remove each vent and seal those up too.

72mach · 09-26-2013, 02:49 AM

I pulled all the puck vents and checked them to make sure they were sealed which they were. The problem I have has to be the seal from the AC unit to the ducting. I have taken it to CW for warranty work and they diagnosed some Styrofoam block blah blah blah but at least they recognized the cold air coming out of the flush mount lights when removed. I'm still awaiting there response to let me know the part is in but its been seven weeks.

sundancer 87 · 09-26-2013, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 72mach

I pulled all the puck vents and checked them to make sure they were sealed which they were. The problem I have has to be the seal from the AC unit to the ducting. I have taken it to CW for warranty work and they diagnosed some Styrofoam block blah blah blah but at least they recognized the cold air coming out of the flush mount lights when removed. I'm still awaiting there response to let me know the part is in but its been seven weeks.

What part are they saying you need to make this situation corrected? Especially a part that takes seven weeks to get!!!

72mach · 09-27-2013, 02:14 AM

I could never get a true straight answer out of the service rep but there is that issue along with broken automatic landing gear and the bedroom slide which 'jumped a tooth' and tore up the carpet. So far the only thing he said came in was a new control unit for the landing gear and I put my bets on them ordering the wrong part as the service department was pretty inept.

Infinityrver · 09-27-2013, 07:06 AM

Although, I can't speak for the landing gear part I can certainly speak for the duct of the air conditioning. IMHO your dealer isn't really going to be able to charge the (Dutchman) factory for taping the duct area just below the squirrel cage of the air conditioning unit. They can make more money charging the factory for replacing a part and time to install. There's actually no part in the duct that needs to be replaced.

Dutchmen won't own this air conditioning problem due to having to issue a recall. Obviously, that would be the RIGHT thing to do.

You may also like: