291RESL Heating vs. Winterizing - Dutchmen Owners
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Old 10-31-2019, 08:20 PM   #1
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291RESL Heating vs. Winterizing

Back in Action again after a season off for military caused back injuries... Now I am interested in finding out if there is a way to add electric heat the underside of my 2015 model 291RESL Kodiac so I don't have the issues I had last year... according to the people who worked on my TT (dealership) the weatherization from 2017/2018 did not stop a freeze of a valve in the exterior connections and was not covered by warranty. I DO NOT TRUST THE DEALERSHIPS ANYMORE!!!!
So I ask:
1. As I keep my TT plugged in here in Oklahoma to AC is there a way to use an electric heater to keep the unit ready to travel at a moments notice? I use the TT as an Amateur Radio Emergency Command post and as a guest house for company over the holidays...
2. If item 1 is not a reality... Is there a procedural checklist and/or Instruction manual to winterize my RESL?
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Old 10-31-2019, 08:29 PM   #2
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Old 10-31-2019, 08:30 PM   #3
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I blow my lines out wit compressed air. I have a Voltage toyhauler.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:26 PM   #4
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Adding heat during storage could lead to condensation and all the problems associated with that.
If you have a sealed underbelly you might be able to "T" off of a furnace duct and enter a duct into the underbelly.
They make heat strip pads that stick to your holding tanks.
For your situation storing your rig in a temp controlled shop or garage would be ideal or winterize by blowing all your lines out with air. Draining all tanks and low level water lines. To hit the road fast all you have to do is add water.
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Old 11-07-2019, 01:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 1l243 View Post
Adding heat during storage could lead to condensation and all the problems associated with that.
If you have a sealed underbelly you might be able to "T" off of a furnace duct and enter a duct into the underbelly.
They make heat strip pads that stick to your holding tanks.
For your situation storing your rig in a temp controlled shop or garage would be ideal or winterize by blowing all your lines out with air. Draining all tanks and low level water lines. To hit the road fast all you have to do is add water.
Thank you for the information - This is a sealed "arctic" underbelly and is supposed to be capable of use in sub-zero weather. As Inside storage is an impossibility right now I asked a tech I know for his suggestions... basically he suggested the same as you with the exception of also purchasing a larger propane tank and keeping the furnace running with the heat at 50 degrees and not use an electric heater.
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Old 11-07-2019, 03:48 PM   #6
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Thank you for the information - This is a sealed "arctic" underbelly and is supposed to be capable of use in sub-zero weather. As Inside storage is an impossibility right now I asked a tech I know for his suggestions... basically he suggested the same as you with the exception of also purchasing a larger propane tank and keeping the furnace running with the heat at 50 degrees and not use an electric heater.
Don't let that ARCTIC sealed underbelly fool you. It isn't worth anything for temps below freezing. You should make sure ALL the water is out of your system or mixed with anti freeze. This includes the tanks. Keeping the heater on at 50 degrees is not right either. It doesn't do much for the lines that stick down below the underbelly or in the walls of the RV like your spray port or system drains.

The ONLY way to keep lines from freezing are blowing them out or winterizing with a good antifreeze.
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:29 PM   #7
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Frank's post above is correct. I have a Kodiak Cub. It was advertised with an enclosed and heated underbelly. It was also advertised as an "All Season" TT.

I bought it in Dec of 1017. I tested it in my driveway. The kitchen water line froze within 4 hours when the temperature dropped from 34 degrees to 29 degrees.

The user manual for my TT (and apparently for many others) said winterize the plumbing for temperatures below 32 deg F. Apparently all season does not include working plumbing.

To use the plumbing required sealing and insulating the plumbing under the floor. The dealer paid about $2000, Kodiak paid $200, and I provide about $1000 worth of additional labor and materials.

Kodiak paid $200 because the "Heated underbelly" had a furnace hose going to the floor, but was not cut through to the under belly.

The dealer sealed the frame to the floor and the belly cover to the frame. He added insulation all around underneath and electric heating pads to the three water tanks.

I upgraded the furnace heat to the underbelly, and insulated the bare steel wheel wells where water pipes rested on the steel or ran very close. I also arranged for return air to the furnace to pass through closed plumbing spaces under cabinets. The water heater and it's pipes were exposed in the front pass through and was not closed into the inside cabinet plumbing spaces. I enclosed and insulated that space.

After all that, I still cannot dump waste water in freezing weather because the exposed dump valves freeze.

Good luck with your modifications.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Badger View Post
Thank you for the information - This is a sealed "arctic" underbelly and is supposed to be capable of use in sub-zero weather. As Inside storage is an impossibility right now I asked a tech I know for his suggestions... basically he suggested the same as you with the exception of also purchasing a larger propane tank and keeping the furnace running with the heat at 50 degrees and not use an electric heater.
I would rule out running the furnace when in storage.
Your best bet is to drain tanks including the water heater and low level water lines. Blow out water lines at 50psi (they sell an adapter) to connect to your city water inlet. Make sure you include the black tank flush line.
Do not add anti freeze.
There should be no water left to freeze.
When you have to bugout just fill the fresh water tank.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:56 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by 1l243 View Post
I would rule out running the furnace when in storage.
Your best bet is to drain tanks including the water heater and low level water lines. Blow out water lines at 50psi (they sell an adapter) to connect to your city water inlet. Make sure you include the black tank flush line.
Do not add anti freeze.
There should be no water left to freeze.
When you have to bugout just fill the fresh water tank.
When he runs out of gas (and doesn't know it) the lines will freeze.. when it gets below 32 for several hours when running the furnace, the lines will freeze, if he doesn't flush the lines, the lines will freeze... leaving water in the hot water tank, will end up smelling like rotten eggs probably... letting water set in the fresh tank, not a good idea.

let us know which you decide to do.

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Old 11-23-2019, 03:55 PM   #10
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Hi Paul. How did you get the dealer to pay for the plumbing system heating upgrades? Was it some acknowledgement by them/Kodiak that the All Season Package was false advertising? We just bought a 2020 Cub in large part b/c of the claims of all-season. Ruled out other units b/c they didn't have that.
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Old 11-23-2019, 04:16 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by 1Ricker View Post
Hi Paul. How did you get the dealer to pay for the plumbing system heating upgrades? Was it some acknowledgement by them/Kodiak that the All Season Package was false advertising? We just bought a 2020 Cub in large part b/c of the claims of all-season. Ruled out other units b/c they didn't have that.
Hello ricker, welcome to the forum. be aware that "all season" does not mean temperatures below 32 as a norm. Things like tank heaters (black, gray, and fresh) help and when camping in freezing weather, they really help. Usually an "all season" rv has an enclosed underbelly. Congrats on your new RV and happy camping!
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Old 11-23-2019, 05:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by 1Ricker View Post
Hi Paul. How did you get the dealer to pay for the plumbing system heating upgrades? Was it some acknowledgement by them/Kodiak that the All Season Package was false advertising? We just bought a 2020 Cub in large part b/c of the claims of all-season. Ruled out other units b/c they didn't have that.
In the winter of 2018 I posted all the details. I can't find the post now.

Basically it is this:
Brought it home from the dealer in Dec.
Tested it in my drive way the first week
Kitchen faucet pipe froze within 4 hours of 29 deg weather. Fresh tank dropped to 34 degrees in 2 days.
Spent two weeks communicating with Dealer
Spent two weeks communicating with Keystone support desk
Spent 5 weeks calling lawyers. Most did not call back. All who did refused to take case
Wrote a letter to State of Wisconsin Atty General
Wrote to Wisconsin State Journal SOS reporter.
SOS called dealer
Dealer called me back within 48 hours. He said he would make it right.
TT spent 6 weeks at the dealer.
Dealer spent $2000. Insulated and sealed underbelly, added three tank heaters.
Keystone paid $200 warranty because hole through floor from furnace was not drilled through.
I paid $200 to replace burst water pump that was probably burst before I took possession.
I spent 2 months increasing furnace heat to underbelly, insulating exposed bare steel in the cabin, modify heat flow to pass through enclosed plumbing spaces, and testing results.
Underbelly now holds at 47 degrees as long as furnace is set to 60 deg or above.
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:38 PM   #13
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WOW!!! Reading that makes me realize where your handle "Persistent" comes from. That is impressive diligence. I'd have pulled my hair out after two weeks.
That said, your story is very encouraging b/c I feel like I was hoodwinked with all the advertising of the "All Seasons" package. We live in Colorado and I specifically told dealers my desire is to have a unit I can park in ski area lots during ski season. I'm not looking to go tundra temps, but something that can handle down to 20F at night is an appeal. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm going to embark on this path and see what turns up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by persistent View Post
In the winter of 2018 I posted all the details. I can't find the post now.

Basically it is this:
Brought it home from the dealer in Dec.
Tested it in my drive way the first week
Kitchen faucet pipe froze within 4 hours of 29 deg weather. Fresh tank dropped to 34 degrees in 2 days.
Spent two weeks communicating with Dealer
Spent two weeks communicating with Keystone support desk
Spent 5 weeks calling lawyers. Most did not call back. All who did refused to take case
Wrote a letter to State of Wisconsin Atty General
Wrote to Wisconsin State Journal SOS reporter.
SOS called dealer
Dealer called me back within 48 hours. He said he would make it right.
TT spent 6 weeks at the dealer.
Dealer spent $2000. Insulated and sealed underbelly, added three tank heaters.
Keystone paid $200 warranty because hole through floor from furnace was not drilled through.
I paid $200 to replace burst water pump that was probably burst before I took possession.
I spent 2 months increasing furnace heat to underbelly, insulating exposed bare steel in the cabin, modify heat flow to pass through enclosed plumbing spaces, and testing results.
Underbelly now holds at 47 degrees as long as furnace is set to 60 deg or above.
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:15 PM   #14
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Dumping tanks

Remember, even if you perform all the winterizing mods I posted, You still will not be able to dump tanks when temperatures are below freezing.

I thought RV-antifreeze in the tanks would allow dumping. I was wrong. Patients and a hair dryer worked on fresh tank and gray tank valves, but I was not willing to get that close to backed up black water.
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:32 PM   #15
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Ready to go..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Badger View Post

1. As I keep my TT plugged in here in Oklahoma to AC is there a way to use an electric heater to keep the unit ready to travel at a moments notice? I use the TT as an Amateur Radio Emergency Command post and as a guest house for company over the holidays...
Use the "blow out" method to drain and blow all water out of your plumbing. That includes ice makers, water heater, and all other appliances. The fresh tank can be filled at a moments notice but only if temperatures will stay above freezing.

You can still use the TT for emergencies and as an extra bedroom, but plumbing will not be available.

With dry plumbing, you can safely heat the cabin with electric or propane. I have a 20 footer. A 12 amp 120 volt electric space heater keeps it warm in 20 degree weather.
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