GEN/CONV Breaker and an Inverter

[UTNative]

Hello,

First post/new member. We recently purchased our first travel trailer - a 2017 Aspen Trail 2340. We love the layout and look forward to taking it out! We unfortunately live in a cold climate and there is still too many feet of snow to get into most spots (and area campgrounds are closed).

While we wait, I am putting together a little DIY 200W folding solar setup so that we can top off the batteries a bit while boondocking. Eventually I'd like to move those two panels with a couple of others onto the roof for a 400W minimum system (more would be great but cost!!). But those are questions for another day.

I am thinking of adding a 1000W inverter to my little solar system. We'd like to be able to use a few AC plugs for minor things (phones, iPads, etc). While I figure out what my final system will look like and what we can afford, I am considering a short term solution until I know exactly what we want and can do with a solar system.

Basically, I am planning on adding an outside 30 amp plug to the inverter near the pass-through (where the inverter, charge controller, etc. will be) and more or less plugging the trailer into itself. Plug the shore power line into that outside the trailer.

Which finally gets me to the question: Does anyone know exactly what the GEN/CONV breaker does on the control panel? I am hoping it shuts off the converter behind the panel. That it's purpose is to allow a generator to run the trailer without drawing power off to recharge the batteries. If it does that, I think my plan will work. If not, I'll be creating a loss loop that will drain the batteries quickly (or worse!).

Any information about that GEN/CONV breaker would be greatly appreciated. Also, any suggestions or thoughts about my plan would be helpful. What am I missing or not recognizing?

[UTNative]

*15Amp 110 outlet on the side - what would plug into the inverter.

[ewarnerusa]

You've got the right idea. We plug the camper shore power cord with a 30A to 15A dogbone adapter right into the inverter 120V AC outlet. Camper power system doesn't know the difference between this AC power and grid/generator, all the outlets are live. But you must disable the onboard converter when you do this or you create a power draining loop where the camper tries to charge its batteries using energy withdrawn from those same batteries via the inverter. In our camper, the "GEN" AC breaker powered most of non-GFI outlets as well as the converter. BAsed on the label you have described, yours does the same. Open it up and move the line feeding the converter its AC power to its own breaker that you get from the hardware store and add to the AC panel. Now the converter is on its own isolated breaker that you can switch off so that it is not energized. Make sure it is off whenever you plug shore power cord into your inverter.

Also suggest flipping breakers off for high draw electric items so they are not accidentally used while on inverter. Your inverter and battery system have no chance at powering them and will trip off if you try, or will succeed and drain your batteries fast! So just avoid the potential of that happening. These would be the air conditioner, microwave, and water heater electric element. Make sure the fridge is forced to GAS only, not on auto. Note that while your outlets are live and providing AC power via the inverter, your capacity is determined by how much battery and inverter you have. BAsically, keep the power loads small unless you have a monster battery bank and inverter.

[ewarnerusa]

Sorry, I realized you described the exact scenario I was trying to warn about! But my suggestion of getting another breaker still sounds like it would be necessary. If you shut off the GEN/CONV breaker, you would also disable most of the non-GFI outlets which would mess with your plan.

[UTNative]

No, thank you for such a helpful response! I appreciate it. I am pleased to hear that the plan might work well (if I do it right). I actually picked up the breaker today to separate the converter as you suggested in your post. That doesn't sound too difficult a task, something that would be beneficial regardless of how the solar plan develops in the future. Thanks!

[ewarnerusa]

Originally Posted by UTNative

No, thank you for such a helpful response! I appreciate it. I am pleased to hear that the plan might work well (if I do it right). I actually picked up the breaker today to separate the converter as you suggested in your post. That doesn't sound too difficult a task, something that would be beneficial regardless of how the solar plan develops in the future. Thanks!

You are welcome! It was a very easy task when I did it. And honestly, my converter is almost never switched on. The solar on the roof and Morningstar solar charge controller do a better job than the onboard converter of maintaining healthy batteries. I only plug the camper in to get the fridge cold a day or two before a trip and even then I leave the converter off because solar keeps the batteries nice and fully charged while at home in storage.

[leisuresolar@gmail.com]

If you create the scenario where your inverter drives the whole coach, then not only do you need to switch off the 12V converter, you need to make sure the gas/electric fridge is set to GAS, not AUTO. On AUTO, it will drain your batteries very quickly.

[1l243]

I have a Coleman 300tq and my distribution panel is a little different so I can't help you there.

I lucked out with a stand alone breaker for the Converter. I switch off high amp breakers like AC to avoid it from accidentally coming on. I also unplug my refrigerator so it will run on propane only. My hot water heater is propane only so I don't have to worry about that.

I simply turn off converter breaker and AC breaker and then plug in the trailer shore power cord directly into the inverter. Everything works inside as it should.

But I can give you some advise on your solar install. I just completed a 500 watt solar install with 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter.

I bought a 400 watt kit upgraded to 500 watts with a extra panel. My advice DON'T BUY A KIT. Reason is, in my case the kit came with pre cut wire lengths that just did not work out for my application. In the kit the panels are designed to be a certain number of feet from the Charge Controller and the Charge Controller a certain number of feet from the Battery Bank. I ended up having to buy extra heavier wire.

Right now your thinking of a portable system so wire run distances may not be a problem but you have to think of voltage drop when running wires from solar panels to charge controller and charge controller to batteries. This is also true when running wires for your inverter to batteries.

Figure it all out on paper where your panels will be located how far it is to the batteries. Where you will mount your Charge Controller and Inverter. They have to be withing 5 feet but not in the same compartment.

Their is a DC voltage drop calculator you can use online that can come in handy.

PWM vs MPPT Charge controller . My kit came with a 40 amp PWM. I found out later that a MPPT charge controller would have gave me more options especially if your running panel wire longer distances.

You won't need a special 30 amp connector for your inverter. a 30/15 amp Dogbone would work fine. I found a Dogbone with 10ga wire on the internet that works great.

As far as your inverter goes if you planning on running TV's and Computers you will want a Pure Sine Wave Inverter. Are you sure 1000 watt is enough for your future system. Maybe you should think 2000 watt now may save you some money later.

Your charge controller should be 40 amp now for your future 400 watt system.

On my system my Charge controller is 30 feet from the solar panels mounted on the roof. I went to heavier 8ga wire due to the longer distance.

My 40 amp charge controller is 5 feet from the battery bank and protected with a 50 amp manual circuit breaker. The charge controller is bluetooth so you can monitor it up to 40 feet on your smart phone. I also put in a disconnect switch between the panels and the charge controller.

My 2000 watt Renogy inverter is also 5 feet from the battery bank. I used 4/0 wire from the inverter to battery bank and a 250 amp ANL fuse..

I found a Aili Battery Monitor on Amazon. It has a Shunt and measures voltage coming and going from your batteries.

Batteries I have four 12 volt deep cycle lead acid batteries with 340 amp hours. In a year a will go with 4 6 volt lead acid batteries for 440 amp hours. I can't afford the new high tech batteries.

Cost. I ended up spending 70% over my original budget due to buying extra wire, special tools and a battery monitor.

Good luck with your system.

Battery Monitor
https://www.amazon.com/AiLi-Programm...91474106&psc=1

[Randy]

My first project: I bought Renogy 100w panels. I can use them to charge my 4 liquid cell trailer’s 6v batteries (12v system). I use a PMC controller. The controller is in an ammo box, input cabling from the panels using a cabling roof terminal, output cabling to the battery bank which I can connect as needed (I used a fishing motor male-female plug placed in the battery compartment wall.). I can monitor the controller by Bluetooth. I travel with the panels in my truck. 200w isn’t great but it will sustain my batteries for cell phones, maybe more.

My second project involves (2) Lion Energy 110ah Li batteries that I bought from Costco for $1300. I now have a “portable” system of Honda 2000i generator, Li batteries, charger, and 2000w Inverter that I can use to power my house necessities, or take it with me camping by plugging into shore power. I move it around using a collapsible hand truck and milk carton containers. My next step will be to bypass the trailer converter at the panel as noted in the prior messages.

I did not want panels fixed on my trailer. I want them portable so I can use them to recharge non-Li battery packs other than those on the trailer,and I can also charge the Li batteries (to about 80% of capacity )

In addition, I have 600w of fixed solar panels on a garden shed that I use via an MTTP controller to sustain my Li batteries.

[1l243]

This is the battery bank as it is today with all the extra wiring for the Solar Charge Controller, Inverter and Battery Monitor Shunt.

Shunt

[lcv800]

Work of beauty. Nicely done.
Rusty

[UTNative]

Originally Posted by leisuresolar@gmail.com

If you create the scenario where your inverter drives the whole coach, then not only do you need to switch off the 12V converter, you need to make sure the gas/electric fridge is set to GAS, not AUTO. On AUTO, it will drain your batteries very quickly.

Good advise - we have the Norcold fridge/freezer with the single on/off button. It automatically switches to electricity if present. It doesn't have the switch many have. I've seen a hack online to force it to stay on propane. I need to read more on that to make sure I am not causing damage doing that. Otherwise it's outside to unplug the refrigerator when turning on the inverter.

[UTNative]

Originally Posted by 1l243

I have a Coleman 300tq and my distribution panel is a little different so I can't help you there.

I lucked out with a stand alone breaker for the Converter. I switch off high amp breakers like AC to avoid it from accidentally coming on. I also unplug my refrigerator so it will run on propane only. My hot water heater is propane only so I don't have to worry about that.

I simply turn off converter breaker and AC breaker and then plug in the trailer shore power cord directly into the inverter. Everything works inside as it should.

But I can give you some advise on your solar install. I just completed a 500 watt solar install with 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter.

I bought a 400 watt kit upgraded to 500 watts with a extra panel. My advice DON'T BUY A KIT. Reason is, in my case the kit came with pre cut wire lengths that just did not work out for my application. In the kit the panels are designed to be a certain number of feet from the Charge Controller and the Charge Controller a certain number of feet from the Battery Bank. I ended up having to buy extra heavier wire.

Right now your thinking of a portable system so wire run distances may not be a problem but you have to think of voltage drop when running wires from solar panels to charge controller and charge controller to batteries. This is also true when running wires for your inverter to batteries.

Figure it all out on paper where your panels will be located how far it is to the batteries. Where you will mount your Charge Controller and Inverter. They have to be withing 5 feet but not in the same compartment.

Their is a DC voltage drop calculator you can use online that can come in handy.

PWM vs MPPT Charge controller . My kit came with a 40 amp PWM. I found out later that a MPPT charge controller would have gave me more options especially if your running panel wire longer distances.

You won't need a special 30 amp connector for your inverter. a 30/15 amp Dogbone would work fine. I found a Dogbone with 10ga wire on the internet that works great.

As far as your inverter goes if you planning on running TV's and Computers you will want a Pure Sine Wave Inverter. Are you sure 1000 watt is enough for your future system. Maybe you should think 2000 watt now may save you some money later.

Your charge controller should be 40 amp now for your future 400 watt system.

On my system my Charge controller is 30 feet from the solar panels mounted on the roof. I went to heavier 8ga wire due to the longer distance.

My 40 amp charge controller is 5 feet from the battery bank and protected with a 50 amp manual circuit breaker. The charge controller is bluetooth so you can monitor it up to 40 feet on your smart phone. I also put in a disconnect switch between the panels and the charge controller.

My 2000 watt Renogy inverter is also 5 feet from the battery bank. I used 4/0 wire from the inverter to battery bank and a 250 amp ANL fuse..

I found a Aili Battery Monitor on Amazon. It has a Shunt and measures voltage coming and going from your batteries.

Batteries I have four 12 volt deep cycle lead acid batteries with 340 amp hours. In a year a will go with 4 6 volt lead acid batteries for 440 amp hours. I can't afford the new high tech batteries.

Cost. I ended up spending 70% over my original budget due to buying extra wire, special tools and a battery monitor.

Good luck with your system.

Battery Monitor
https://www.amazon.com/AiLi-Programm...91474106&psc=1

That's a nice setup! A well organized and put together system. Batteries will be next for us. Like you, the new LifePo4 are too pricey. I am thinking of a few 6v, 235ah batteries in series. I'd like to add four but worry about tongue weight and payload on the truck. Switching to 6v deep cycles I think would add close to 200lbs to the very front of the trailer. Not quite sure yet how to get around that without substantial challenges.

I've gone back and forth on the 1000 vs 2000W inverter. TBH I actually ordered the 2000W from Renogy then switched to the 1000W. I still go back and forth on that. I'll never have the battery bank or solar capacity to run AC or anything like that off grid. That will always be a generator. However, it is important that I future proof as much as possible for where I'd like to end up - to avoid repurchasing equipment along the way. I wish I had a better sense of what the differences are in real terms between the two. If I'd ever really need the 2K. If so, I am still in my return/exchange window with Renogy

[kjlarson]

We boondock also and needed to charge batteries and run AC appliances. I installed three 100ah AGM deep cycle RV batteries, three REC 330 watt solar panels, Victron 150/70 MPPT charge controller, AIMs 2000 watt pass through pure sine wave inverter. I disconnected the converter at the control panel, installed a separate 15amp breaker for it and connected the converter to the positive side of shore power; now, the converter only comes on when connected to shore power - do not need to turn breakers off or on - it automatic. Make sure you get a "pass through" inverter with automatic transfer switch, the ones in the pictures is not.

Definitely go with an MPPT controller as they use newer technology to charge the batteries and monitor the overall performance of the system. They also put out cleaner power that will increase the life of your batteries.

As to solar panels; yes, you can buy a bunch of 100 watters but you need a lot to do most jobs and roof space is a determining factor in how many can be installed. I chose REC 330 watt panels because of their advanced technology, three provide 990 watts. Those 990 watts run everything except the A/C; well not really true, the A/C will run but it drains the batteries very fast so we just use the fan portion to circulate the air. Since the 120Vac appliances are used intermittently they are not a problem: microwave, coffee pot, toaster, CPAP and yes the frig. My batteries generally never go lower that 60% of full charge. The panels recharge the batteries in about four hours when at the 60% level even in shaded conditions due to REC's split cell technology. All is good.

Now some details. The panels are wired in series to increase the amperage. I ran 8 AWG wire from the panels to the charge controller; by-the-way you must install a disconnect between the panels and the charge controller to meet the requirements of the National Electrical Code which is required for trailers believe it or not. In fact all AC wiring in the trailer needs to meet the NEC, has something to do with the fact that trailers are living quarters. Charge Controller to batteries is 6 AWG as specified for the controller, the controller is limited to 70 amps output so 6 AWG is more than enough. Batteries are wired in parallel using 2 AWG and 2 AWG to the inverter. My runs are all less than 3 feet except the panel to controller which is about 15 feet. I also replaced the 10 AWG from the shore power plug to the inverter input with 8 AWG due to the longer run, about 20 feet. I installed a battery monitoring system (BMS) to keep track of the 12Vdc going to the inverter as that is the most critical factor in not over discharging the batteries. The BMS system sounds an alarm when the battery get to 11 volts. I can also monitor the batteries and manage the charge controller via bluetooth on my phone.

You will also want to insure there is adequate ventilation to keep the batteries, inverter and charge controller from getting too hot; they don't like that. A main battery disconnect is a good idea, put it in the negative wire from the batteries to chassis ground. When working on the wiring in the trailer you might want to lookup Keystones standardized wiring color coding, heres a link to it.

Get out there and have fun. Maybe will run into each other somewhere on "trail".

[persistent]

"I am thinking of adding a 1000W inverter to my little solar system. We'd like to be able to use a few AC plugs for minor things (phones, iPads, etc). While I figure out what my final system will look like and what we can afford, I am considering a short term solution until I know exactly what we want and can do with a solar system."

A 1000 watt inverter is small for connecting directly to a 30 amp service entrance. It really can't handle any appliances on the 30 amp system. At most, it can run small appliances like laptops or a TV on the General outlet circuit. The external plug for the shore power cord seems simple to do, but becomes complected to operate.

Isolating the circuits you want to power with the inverter is going to work better in the long run. It takes a little more wiring to install.

Method 1
The simplest is to install two or three new 120 volt outlets and wire them directly to the inverter. The inverter will provide over current protection. Put one outlet next to the dinette, one next to the couch, one next to the bed.

you could put one outlet near the inverter and run extension cords to where you want to use it. Light weight lamp cords would work fine.

In this case the two 120 volt systems are completely separate. The inverter outlets will be active any time you turn the inverter "on".

Method 2
Tap into the GEN/Converter wire. Find where the Converter is joined in. It may be at the breaker or in the service entrance box. Separate the cable going to the GEN outlets.

Install a transfer switch there with the output to the GEN outlets. One input goes to the inverter, the other input to the GEN/Converter breaker.

There are many kinds of transfer switches. Some are complected expensive devices. That is not necessary. It can be a mechanical switch.

It needs to be 20 amp 120 volt, three pole (hot, neutral, ground), double throw with disconnect before connect sequence. Such switches are available on-line. Mount the switch where you can easily reach it maybe next to the inverter "on/off" switch.

If the GEN/Converter circuit breaker is 20 amp and you use 12 gauge wire, you can replace the 1000 watt inverter with a 2000 watt with almost no other changes. Everything will work the same. Of course the battery bank needs to be larger.

[Randy]

An argument for reworking your system for Li batteries; First, a 12v 110 ah Li battery weighs half as much as an AGM battery, second, they outperform them, and third, you can discharge them to zero and then recharge them back to 100% (13.6v), whereas if you discharge your AGM below 50% you will never recover back to the initial output of your battery pack potential.

[1l243]

Originally Posted by UTNative

That's a nice setup! A well organized and put together system. Batteries will be next for us. Like you, the new LifePo4 are too pricey. I am thinking of a few 6v, 235ah batteries in series. I'd like to add four but worry about tongue weight and payload on the truck. Switching to 6v deep cycles I think would add close to 200lbs to the very front of the trailer. Not quite sure yet how to get around that without substantial challenges.

I've gone back and forth on the 1000 vs 2000W inverter. TBH I actually ordered the 2000W from Renogy then switched to the 1000W. I still go back and forth on that. I'll never have the battery bank or solar capacity to run AC or anything like that off grid. That will always be a generator. However, it is important that I future proof as much as possible for where I'd like to end up - to avoid repurchasing equipment along the way. I wish I had a better sense of what the differences are in real terms between the two. If I'd ever really need the 2K. If so, I am still in my return/exchange window with Renogy

My Toy Hauler was designed to put a generator on a rack built on the A frame. My thinking was if it's good enough for a generator it's good enough for four batteries.

I found a nice metal box at Harbor Freight where the batteries fit in perfectly and the box fit between the trailer and propane tanks.

If you're going with 6 volts you will have to buy two or four. Four would be my choice as you will double your amp hours.

As far as the inverter is concerned, I wanted to be able to run my electric coffee maker and my microwave if only for a few minutes at a time. Coffee maker takes about 4 min to brew and microwave maybe two to three minutes at a time. Therefore I needed the higher wattage inverter. Along with the higher wattage and will come higher amp draw and require heavier gauge wire runs from Inverter to battery.

KJ's system sounds awesome but you are thinking of starting small with room to grow. I think going with a 2000 watt inverter will do that but if you think you will never need to run a high amp appliance a 1000 watt inverter will do for TV's, computers and phone chargers.

It's not a bother to throw the breaker to the Converter. It will probably be off when I hit the road and if I pull into a park with electricity I will just switch it back.

If I remember right a 2000 watt Renogy Inverter charger with transfer switch will run you a extra $400

I thought of going with larger panels . KJ's 330 watt panels are 65 inches long and about 40 inches wide. That would have only left me about 15 inches on either side of the roof to walk up and down. 100 watt panels let me put then in tighter places like between a roof vent and the AC. BUT there is something to be said about less panels. My five 100 watt panels have four mounting brackets per panel, four mounting screws per bracket x five panels is 80 holes in your roof! Now that will keep you up at nights!!!

Note :1
If you go with Renogy panel mounting brackets I found the provided screws too small more like a sheet metal screw. Not great for biting into wood. I went with #12 stainless round head wood screws.

Note:2
I used a small strip of Eternabond tape between the bottom of the bracket and the roof membrane. Eternabond can self seal around the screw as it passes through. Plus I used Dicor seff leveling lap sealant. Probably too much Dicor but what the heck.

[UTNative]

Originally Posted by persistent

[B]
Tap into the GEN/Converter wire. Find where the Converter is joined in. It may be at the breaker or in the service entrance box. Separate the cable going to the GEN outlets.

Install a transfer switch there with the output to the GEN outlets. One input goes to the inverter, the other input to the GEN/Converter breaker.

There are many kinds of transfer switches. Some are complected expensive devices. That is not necessary. It can be a mechanical switch.

It needs to be 20 amp 120 volt, three pole (hot, neutral, ground), double throw with disconnect before connect sequence. Such switches are available on-line. Mount the switch where you can easily reach it maybe next to the inverter "on/off" switch.

If the GEN/Converter circuit breaker is 20 amp and you use 12 gauge wire, you can replace the 1000 watt inverter with a 2000 watt with almost no other changes. Everything will work the same. Of course the battery bank needs to be larger.

I’ve been thinking about adding a auto transfer switch. I saw that WFCO even has one that will attach to the back of the main board box. No mounting necessary. But I don’t know about the quality of that one. It wasn’t that expensive. Neither were a few others (GOPower, Furrion, etc) I found to do the job.

My first step will be putting the converter on its own breaker. Seems the best place to start while also not impacting the any future plan. Easy without moving backwards to add the transfer switch or later with more expense an inverter charger that will also switched (as noted below - Renogy has one that is relatively moderate in price.

I am also now considering adding a single LifePo4 to replace the two new but crappy batteries put in by the dealership. As someone noted in the thread it is REAL easy to break the budget when you get thinking about what would work best!

[UTNative]

Originally Posted by Randy

An argument for reworking your system for Li batteries; First, a 12v 110 ah Li battery weighs half as much as an AGM battery, second, they outperform them, and third, you can discharge them to zero and then recharge them back to 100% (13.6v), whereas if you discharge your AGM below 50% you will never recover back to the initial output of your battery pack potential.

That is interesting - While not the case, I find myself always thinking about the cost of 2 Li batteries. You do 6Vs in pairs, my current cheap but new batteries are in a pair given their poor performance and the 50% max discharge. But as you note, that really isn’t the case. The Li batteries are still quite expensive but if you get the same or perhaps more out one 12V/100AH LifePo4 while cutting down weight significantly - perhaps it’s the better start for a small system.

I understand though that they are more temperature sensitive and the tongue would not be the place to put them. And that you can’t or shouldn’t add another one later (they should be in pairs - purchased at the same time in order to balance.)?

If I ever went the Li route, I’ve thought of mounting a battery box in the pass through near where the Solar Panel will be or even running the cables to under the front bed storage just behind the pass through. Place a battery box in the corner of that space. I am curious what others experience has been with Li batteries.

[UTNative]

Originally Posted by 1l243

I found a nice metal box at Harbor Freight where the batteries fit in perfectly and the box fit between the trailer and propane tanks.

I used a small strip of Eternabond tape between the bottom of the bracket and the roof membrane. Eternabond can self seal around the screw as it passes through. Plus I used Dicor seff leveling lap sealant. Probably too much Dicor but what the heck.

Helpful info - thanks! I’ve actually looked at that HF box a couple of times already. Something lockable to replace the plastic battery boxes.

And to be honest, me drilling that many screws into my roof membrane is THE primary reason I am starting with a DIY 200W suitcase. Far too much chance of operator error on my part having never done that before. Although I have had a few long-time campers tell me that there is no such think as too much Dicor!