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Old 10-08-2017, 06:47 PM   #81
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I'm sure a stern complaint to the better business bureau and a $250.00 investment for a lawyer to write a very stern letter, would be the way to go if this is that bad (and I think it is). Maybe you can start a gofundme page, I'd kick in.
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Old 10-08-2017, 07:06 PM   #82
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I'm sure a stern complaint to the better business bureau and a $250.00 investment for a lawyer to write a very stern letter, would be the way to go if this is that bad (and I think it is). Maybe you can start a gofundme page, I'd kick in.
The BBB will accept complaint letters from affiliated companies. That's all the BBB does, it hasn't any authority to require an affiliate to take any action regarding repairs or replacement.

More complaint coverage can be had on this forum than with the BBB. Keystone only has 20 or so negative comments, a few less that can be found in a day here.

A stern letter from a lawyer won't accomplish anything with the BBB but it might get published as a complaint. As far as sending a stern letter to Keystone I'm sure it will join the huge stack of letters in the IN box at the corporate office to never be read.

250 bucks would be thrown to the wind. It will take much more than feeding a lawyer.
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:28 PM   #83
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Do you think it's possible to spread the word and force our government to investigate the RV Industry? 100,000 signatures in 30 days would be tough.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/about

Also, I've been in communication with CBS news about doing a national story on RV manufacturers not honoring their warranties. The more people we get to contact them the better. Briefly tell them your story.

investigates@cbsnews.com

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Old 10-08-2017, 08:36 PM   #84
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The BBB will accept complaint letters from affiliated companies. That's all the BBB does, it hasn't any authority to require an affiliate to take any action regarding repairs or replacement.

More complaint coverage can be had on this forum than with the BBB. Keystone only has 20 or so negative comments, a few less that can be found in a day here.

A stern letter from a lawyer won't accomplish anything with the BBB but it might get published as a complaint. As far as sending a stern letter to Keystone I'm sure it will join the huge stack of letters in the IN box at the corporate office to never be read.

250 bucks would be thrown to the wind. It will take much more than feeding a lawyer.

Apparently I have had much better success with those tactics than you have.
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:45 PM   #85
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Perhaps so, I suppose it would depend on the affiliated company.

I did complain to the BBB and they passed my complaint on to the offending company only to have the company deny my allegations. Such allegations were verified by another person that was with me at the time.

It turned out to be a 'he said/she said' deal and nothing was accomplished. It would be understandable a company would want to make a complaint go away and not tarnish their reputation but I don't see that happening with Keystone.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:27 PM   #86
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An amazing, yet heartbreaking, conversation going on here.

Nobody was more naïve than I when I purchased my first RV 3+ years ago.
And that first purchase actually led me in the wrong direction of perception of the industry. I bought a used (9 years old) Camp Inn Teardrop that cost more than I paid 3 months ago for a brand new Forest River Wolf Pup Toy Hauler. That led to my first impression of the RV industry to be no different than most others......You get what you pay for. In fact, the manufacturer got in touch with me and let me know they are very proud of their product and wanted me to know that they are there for me if I should need ANY help or have any questions.

You can imagine how UNLIKE the industry that kind of customer service actually is. But how would I know?

Fast forward another 1 1/2 years and I decide I want to expand my RV fleet.
(I had discovered I LOVED living out of the nomad style shelter)
I purchased my Aerolite 213 and took it home to live in full time for a short few months. My first post on this forum documents my purchasing experience as well as my naïve take on these things.

I now know so many things I didn't know then. I learned 99% of it here on this forum. I know now how fortunate I was to get a "unit" with nary a problem. Really fortunate I had a water tight roof. And I also think my extended warranty was a TOTAL waste of $money because I can't and will not make decisions based on faith in it. If I don't have faith it in, it isn't really a warranty, is it?

Armed with this very much different opinion of the industry than I started with a few years ago, I recently purchased the little toy hauler mentioned above. (Yea, I have too many RV's) And unlike the previous two purchases, I had a completely different self-accountability point of view. I certainly didn't purchase any warranties, nor did I care about buying close-to-home since I knew once I left the dealership, I had no intention of ever returning. That in itself had a substantial influence on the purchasing strategy because I ONLY required rock-bottom pricing and as thorough as possible PDI. No reason to compromise either in order to build a relationship that could be leveraged in the future.

By the way, that is very unusual for me. I am rarely a hard core pricing negotiator. Instead, I'm usually a relationship building consumer with the intent of long term business benefits.

As for as some effort for us RV consumers to band together and create a critical mass moment in our favor?........I'm all in if the stars were to align for such a thing. But I'm probably not going to participate in any drive that is fueled by emotion. I'm too old.
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Old 10-09-2017, 04:29 PM   #87
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I think a stern or threatening letter from a lawyer is not a good idea unless you are willing to go the extra mile. Keystone could very easily write your attorney back a letter to inform his client (you), that keystone will no longer speak to them. Only communicate lawyer to lawyer.
Although I never heard of any RV company doing this, I do know that that is what would happen to people that put in claims with Liberty Mutual Insurance Company many moons ago. So, dont threaten with lawyer unless you intend to follow through.

As far as my situation, i finally brought the RV in for warranty work this past Thiurs and will pick it up this coming Friday. All parts are in and service dept is supposed to jump on it. We will see what happens.

In the future, If I have another problem with them, I will start my campaign. My strategy is to go after the dealership, not keystone. Bad press on a small scale means nothing to the corporation, but can cripple the local dealership. I have already picked 2 domain names for my website. It will become my new hobby.

Looking back, i think my best option should have been my original plan - buy an 8 - 10 year old model. By that time all should have been fixed already.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:19 PM   #88
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...But I'm probably not going to participate in any drive that is fueled by emotion. I'm too old.
You lucky old snakebitten cowboy, wish I'd known you sooner and I'd let you pick out my TT.

I understand the anti-drama sentiment but it's hard to not feel emotional when someone has taken advantage of you and there are 5 or 6 digits worth of Benjamin Franklin's involved.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:26 PM   #89
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...Looking back, i think my best option should have been my original plan - buy an 8 - 10 year old model. By that time all should have been fixed already.
We started to buy a used premium TT. Went to pick it up and found this. DICOR wasn't even touching the vent in several places and it had been leaking for at least two years. Thank the big man upstairs it was raining like crazy that day.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:49 PM   #90
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You lucky old snakebitten cowboy, wish I'd known you sooner and I'd let you pick out my TT.

I understand the anti-drama sentiment but it's hard to not feel emotional when someone has taken advantage of you and there are 5 or 6 digits worth of Benjamin Franklin's involved.
Don't read TOO much into what I type. It's probably my limited ability to use the English language, but I do not mean to imply that I don't feeeeel the pain. In fact, the STING is no different for me. The injustice is an assault on common decency.

It's just that......say.....10 years ago I would LEAD the war to "make those people pay". And spend enormous capital (passion and Ben Franklins) to defend the principal! If that's what it took.

But again, today?..............not so much.

If you are wondering why the dramatic change, I suspect it is because I now know what real loss is. If you live long enough, you will. Right? So these days if I got home and found everything stolen, or burned down, and I didn't even have insurance or recourse, I swear I'd take the punch-in-the-gut (no choice) and just figure out how to recover my joy (absolutely choice). Notice I didn't say I wouldn't step into the woods and screeeeeaaaaammmm for a bit.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:53 PM   #91
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...I suspect it is because I now know what real loss is...
Understood
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:29 PM   #92
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The RV industry is it's own animal and it's own worst enemy. The RVIA is a "voluntary" standard that is made up of the various RV manufacturer members. They build one unit to meet the standards for inspection then get the seal for the rest they build regardless of how well built they may be.

The only way to stop them is to not purchase their mess. Unfortunately they are in the driver's seat at the moment and it shows no immediate signs of slowing down. I have been messing about with RV's for over 40 years and the quality is what it is. IMHO it has gone down hill as the units become more complicated. It has never been spectacular, for most of the major manufacturers. I have seen some really crappy stuff on 70's vintage Airstreams! Most RV manufacturers started out as mom and pop regional operations, they are now national conglomerates. They are run by the bean counters and the sales teams, in many cases they remind me of the snake oil salesmen of years past.

The best defense is to do a thorough PDI of your own before you sign on the dotted line. If the dealer refuses to work with you, walk away, if the unit has too many issues... walk away. There are some good and even great dealers out there, but they are few and far between. CW isn't one of them from what I have seen. They seem to be scooping up all of the local dealers and the first thing they do is cut wages and fire the competent people that used to work there. I have observed this first hand.

As far as suing the manufacturer? Good luck! they have very deep pockets and I have not seen many results from that angle of attack. Yes the occasional individual may get satisfaction, but I suspect the overall winners are the lawyers.

If you aren't a hands on handy person you may need to seriously consider NOT purchasing an RV. The warranty isn't worth the paper it is printed on and the extended warranty is only as good as the dealer that is willing to work on it. There are roughly 2500 RV dealers in the US, currently CW makes up nearly 5% of those (125 dealerships). Scary numbers. I suspect the number of competent servicing dealers is probably half of that. If you find a good dealer, stick with them.

Otherwise come here and we will try to walk you through the repairs.

Aaron
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Old 10-10-2017, 12:59 PM   #93
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https://www.pissedconsumer.com/browse-reviews.html

59 complaints concerning dutchmen. some of them are pretty funny!
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:08 PM   #94
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There are some mad people out there. Plenty of other brands too...
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:05 PM   #95
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I see a bunch of people on there who need jobs or hobbies.
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:17 PM   #96
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I see a bunch of people on there who need jobs or hobbies.
or lives!
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:13 PM   #97
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Just got my AC replaced under warranty. They put a 15k in, and it took only a week. The estimate was 2 weeks. I've only run it for 30 minutes, but I'm happy so far. RV general store in Newcastle OK.
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:59 AM   #98
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Just got my AC replaced under warranty. They put a 15k in, and it took only a week. The estimate was 2 weeks. I've only run it for 30 minutes, but I'm happy so far. RV general store in Newcastle OK.
What brand A/C is it? Most appliances are covered by the appliance manufacturers warranty not Dutchmen's.

Glad you are happy and got a dealer that will do some work!

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Old 10-11-2017, 04:07 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
The RV industry is it's own animal and it's own worst enemy. The RVIA is a "voluntary" standard that is made up of the various RV manufacturer members. They build one unit to meet the standards for inspection then get the seal for the rest they build regardless of how well built they may be.

The only way to stop them is to not purchase their mess. Unfortunately they are in the driver's seat at the moment and it shows no immediate signs of slowing down. I have been messing about with RV's for over 40 years and the quality is what it is. IMHO it has gone down hill as the units become more complicated. It has never been spectacular, for most of the major manufacturers. I have seen some really crappy stuff on 70's vintage Airstreams! Most RV manufacturers started out as mom and pop regional operations, they are now national conglomerates. They are run by the bean counters and the sales teams, in many cases they remind me of the snake oil salesmen of years past.

The best defense is to do a thorough PDI of your own before you sign on the dotted line. If the dealer refuses to work with you, walk away, if the unit has too many issues... walk away. There are some good and even great dealers out there, but they are few and far between. CW isn't one of them from what I have seen. They seem to be scooping up all of the local dealers and the first thing they do is cut wages and fire the competent people that used to work there. I have observed this first hand.

As far as suing the manufacturer? Good luck! they have very deep pockets and I have not seen many results from that angle of attack. Yes the occasional individual may get satisfaction, but I suspect the overall winners are the lawyers.

If you aren't a hands on handy person you may need to seriously consider NOT purchasing an RV. The warranty isn't worth the paper it is printed on and the extended warranty is only as good as the dealer that is willing to work on it. There are roughly 2500 RV dealers in the US, currently CW makes up nearly 5% of those (125 dealerships). Scary numbers. I suspect the number of competent servicing dealers is probably half of that. If you find a good dealer, stick with them.

Otherwise come here and we will try to walk you through the repairs.

Aaron
Yes, yes, and yes!
The RV industry is a mess! And the only way to take a stand is by not buying their junk. We fell in love with RV life in this short period of ownership despite the problems. So as Snakebitten said...next time we won't be so naive. Going into CW five days after purchase for a leak was like taking a baseball bat to the head. We won't EVER be going back there to buy anything. Finding a good dealership that backs up our purchase along with a quality product that backs up the warranty will be key as well. Hopefully something like that actually exists for future purchases.

We bought cheap. And for that I'm kind of thankful. We've been awakened thru this process, so I'm glad we dipped our toe in the water with a $15,000 purchase instead of a $50,000 one. My heart breaks for TONYB. Hopefully he's getting his fixed now and will give us an update. My dad recently spoke to someone that had purchased a brand new $200,000 motorhome that had to have the entire floor replaced. So price points don't indicate quality in the RV industry. And Aaron, you're so right! The PDI is SO important. I'm embarrassed to say, we used our PDI as a tutorial more than an inspection. Very stupid. But as newbies we didn't know. Hard lesson learned.

The Gypsy Wagon (that's what we named our camper) goes back to the dealership at the end of the month. I'm going to swallow my bitterness and pray that it gets fixed this winter. I hope yours does too Brown Lantern. Then we can put this mess behind us. We're calling Coleman first to see if taking it straight to the factory is an option. Until then we're going to take a few more trips and hopefully enjoy some beautiful Fall foliage.

This winter I'll be watching YouTube videos on RV life and repairs. We've learned so much already. In the past, I've drywalled, tiled my bathroom, and built a pergola, so hopefully I'm not a lost cause on RV repairs. (Military wives quickly learn to become self-sufficient badasses.) My husband is not handy, so he'll have to be the muscle. Best of all, I have all of you to walk me thru repairs!! TY

I'll keep posting about the problems anywhere that I can, if only to save someone from the heartache I've endured. Knowledge and research is power. While I don't think the BBB or lawyers are much help, the internet can be a very powerful tool.
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Old 10-11-2017, 04:55 PM   #100
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Excellent Post!

And I love your attitude. I can hear it in your words. Yaw are going to conquer the RV obstacles and move on to the sweet-spot, I can tell.

Kind of a coincidence, but I was at my truck dealer yesterday making an appointment for getting a 30,000 mile checkup. (OK, basically a refresh for my brakes since I had so many miles of towing in that 30,000 that I thought it prudent) Anyways, my truck sales-buddy saw me and asked if I had time to stop by his desk before I leave. I did. It had nothing to do with sales, but instead he wanted to ask me a couple of questions about Travel Trailers. I've know him for many years and he has watched, from a distance, my recent few years of RV'ing\towing......etc.

It started out as the typical questions about REAL world towing capacities. And since he has been in the business for years, he was easy to convince on where to draw the line on bumper pulling. (What a breath of fresh air on this age old debate! He completely accepted the facts) So then the discussion turned towards which RV brand and who made better quality products. Well, considering this thread recently, you can imagine it quickly turned into a disturbing bit of opinion from me.

But he then revealed to me that my comments now made sense of what he had been told years ago by a friend of his that had been in RV sales. Here is how he put it: This friend had told him if he were going to buy ANY RV, he would do 2 things, amongst many. 1. He would require the right to climb up and walk around on the roof of the unit he was considering. He would be looking for several things....how it "felt" under his feet. Solid and sturdy? No soft spots? And no obvious eye catching uh-ohs? And number 2, he'd prefer to inspect the RV he was considering after a thorough rainfall, with the RV fully exposed to the weather.

Might be an over-simplification of what my friend was actually told, but it is how he remembered it. Considering this thread, it really doesn't sound so crazy, and certainly has credibility considering the source.
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