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Old 12-21-2015, 04:58 PM   #21
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You notice that the European made ones don't have slides. That was a huge plant. We American's are big people who need "room". Dutchman exec's couldn't handle the quality controls involved in truly building a top notch RV trailer. They wouldn't stand for it. It's called "planned obsolescence" build them to wear out or fall apart, to they buy another unit.
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Old 12-22-2015, 02:51 AM   #22
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You notice that the European made ones don't have slides. That was a huge plant. We American's are big people who need "room". Dutchman exec's couldn't handle the quality controls involved in truly building a top notch RV trailer. They wouldn't stand for it. It's called "planned obsolescence" build them to wear out or fall apart, to they buy another unit.
Slides are not as popular in Europe, as the majority of the RVers are towing with a car or small SUVs. Most of the trailers in Europe are under 4K pounds.

The progression is from a towable into one of the other extreme rough country RVs or a Class A. They have some pretty wild Class A's with garages in place of the basement.

The Euro manufacturers are doing a lot of R&D and building some very creative slides to make more room. Their slides are making the living space longer rather than wider. Some very interesting concept RVs either built or CAD renditions are on youtube.

Dutchmen would have no choice but to clean up it's act if we had access to European quality RVs.
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:32 AM   #23
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~snip~

Dutchmen would have no choice but to clean up it's act if we had access to European quality RVs.
I doubt it. The nicer RV's go for big money. Too many people won't pay the price, especially if they can get a 5 bedroom house for the price of a 2 bedroom apartment. There are some people that are going to be willing to pay for a smaller quality unit, but they are in the minority. I have talked to a couple of people that think I am crazy for even considering spending in the $35k-$40k range for a 24' Lance TT. Yes I could buy a low end 35' fiver for that amount of money. But that isn't what I want.

The other issue is that the European RV's are built to a better standard because of government regulation. In North America they are all but unregulated. I know Airstream was building units for the EU and they were selling for about 35%-45% more than equivalent US units. Partly due to the tax structure, partly due to the fact they had to actually build an quality inspected product.

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Old 12-22-2015, 10:23 PM   #24
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I doubt it. The nicer RV's go for big money. Too many people won't pay the price, especially if they can get a 5 bedroom house for the price of a 2 bedroom apartment.

Your right, I keep forgetting that not everyone has learned the life lesson that my DW and I learned early in on in our journey, that you get what you pay for, and if you buy cheap you usually end up paying more in the long run. Like the old fable not everything that glitters is gold.

I like a deal as much as anyone else, but there are deals on quality products and then there are the deals because it's something else.

A lesson that I forgot when we bought the Dutchmen and I had been warned. .



There are some people that are going to be willing to pay for a smaller quality unit, but they are in the minority.

Then you have the people who want to have the latest and greatest in what ever they buy, so they don't care if they buy a POS, they won't have it long.

I have talked to a couple of people that think I am crazy for even considering spending in the $35k-$40k range for a 24' Lance TT. Yes I could buy a low end 35' fiver for that amount of money. But that isn't what I want.

You and I know who's crazy! Damn why didn't I buy that Lance.

The other issue is that the European RV's are built to a better standard because of government regulation. In North America they are all but unregulated. I know Airstream was building units for the EU and they were selling for about 35%-45% more than equivalent US units. Partly due to the tax structure, partly due to the fact they had to actually build an quality inspected product.

Yes the Europeans take their road and product safety very seriously and Dutchmen would never be able to get to those standards without a total make over.

Airstream is still building units for the European market, they also promote them for uses other than as a camper, they have commercial conversions, like food wagons and mobile showrooms
.

Aaron
Dutchmen could build a decent product if they would just do a little bit of QC and cleaning up the manufacturing proccess. But that might cost them another dollar or two of the bottom line.
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Old 12-24-2015, 12:25 AM   #25
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Dutchmen could build a decent product if they would just do a little bit of QC and cleaning up the manufacturing process. But that might cost them another dollar or two of the bottom line.
Very true.

Me and the wife will be going to the RV show here in Cleveland (OH.) the first week in Jan. (600+) all under roof. Just tire kicking....

Looking for:

~ Good quality built RV

~ 25' to 30' ( do 90% of our camping in state and national parks) so there are some very small roads I have to drive down.

~ More of a 4 season RV (non-hybrid) trailer. Will retire next year and have the flexibility to camp off season. Fact we went camping the first weekend in Dec. this year. Going to Alaska next summer, so I would rather take the hybrid we have because there will be some wear & tear from the trip.

~ More aerodynamic front cap than the Aerolite hybrid we have now. Now with the hybrid the front "rack" can only be so much.

~ 50+ gallon fresh water (do many 7 night stays at one state park)

~ Good amount of storage (the hybrid we have now has a lot of storage, especially the overhead cabinets)

~ Decent counter space (Our 13' Aerolite counter space is OK, the 05' Aerolite hybrid had huge counter space.

~ At least a 64" couch. Not those 50" useless ones.

~ Larger bathroom, especially the shower stall. The Aerolite hybrid now has the corner shower which is small at best. We make it work, but the even the floor space is small to change in. Zero space to store extra towels.

~ Now this one is the one that is going to be problematic. The wife wants our son to have his own bed / bunk. She doesn't want him sleeping on the couch, though he likes sleeping on the couch. With the two hybrid's we have owned, the two bunk ends took care of that. When we boon-dock, the wife and me sleep on the dinette the kid gets the couch. But in order to get a dedicated bed (bunk / bunk-house floor-plan) under 30' means no couch. Or a 50" couch and a tiny bathroom / shower.
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Old 12-24-2015, 12:36 AM   #26
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Jim,

Take a long look at the Lance line up. They have several models that might fit your requirements. They aren't perfect but they check off a lot of boxes. Their largest model is only 22'-6" and the GVW is only 6000#. Their build level is well above the industry average. The 2185 might be a good fit for you. It has a walk around queen bed, bunks, dinette and holds 45 gallons of fresh water. They have a very active online community too.

I have been looking at their units for over a year now. The only issue that I am aware of is their use of the Carefree Latitude Awning, it has some issues. You can order without it and put on the old style manual Carefree Fiesta.

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Old 12-24-2015, 01:01 AM   #27
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Take a long look at the Lance line up. They have several models that might fit your requirements. They aren't perfect but they check off a lot of boxes. Their largest model is only 22'-6" and the GVW is only 6000#.
Actually we did see the Lance trailers in June near Cincinnati. I liked the built quality. A little too small, and I thought they didn't feel, what's the word I'm looking for..."homey".
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Old 12-24-2015, 07:32 AM   #28
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Mighty long list you have there, Jim.

It ls almost impossible to get everything you want in one unit.

Too bad that you can't factory order some from column A and some from column B. No I take that back, that would create absolute chaos on the shop floor and nothing usable would come out the end of the line.

If I was looking for something now and I saw those Earthbound ads, I would be towing one of them home in a heart beat. Most likely the one that is 3-50 miles away in the province next door to me. Used and 5 years old, that Earthbound will outlast my Dutchmen. Had I not spent about $4K upgrading the Dutchmen POS, I would very seriously consider the leap.

I know, no bunk, but a quality product.

Just my
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:02 PM   #29
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On our way home from Alaska next summer, I defiantly want to stop at a Arctic Fox dealer. They don't sell them east of the Mississippi. Also coming back from AK. I'm planning to take the Cassier route down thru BC. which when I went skiing up there a few years ago we did a 1200 mile loop of all the ski areas in British Columbia and couldn't believe all the RV dealers.
Our 2005 Aerolite over 7 seasons we camped 380 nights. We actually started looking maybe during the 5th season for the "next" RV. So it took 2 years before we settled on the one we have now (2013 Aerolite) going on 200+ nights.

Even once we found the floor plan we liked, it wasn't till 9 months late we bought it from a dealer 2 hours away. Our local Dutchman dealer at the time (15 miles away), was in no way willing to negotiate. They stuck to their price. Ended up getting it for 50% less out of pocket than their offer.

So it might take us a few years to find what will suit us, now that I'll be retiring in June. There will be a lot of back and forth between the wife and myself. But for the most part we agree on most items.

No hurry....People that finance or are at the mercy of the dealer to get them to a certain "payment amount" makes it easier for them to pull the trigger I think. They don't look at $24,999, they look at $275 a month for 10 or 15 years. But when you pay cash for your "next" RV you want to make sure it fits most of your needs, because it's your hard earned money and not the banks.
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:34 PM   #30
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I agree that Arctic Fox is worth the look too. They are rock solid. My wife didn't like the interior feel as well as the Lance. There were a couple of used units for sale here on the East Coast. Another one to look for is BigFoot, however they only come in a max length of 25'. Buddy of mine had one and just sold it this year. He switched up to a Born Free Motorhome.

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Old 12-24-2015, 02:52 PM   #31
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When I called Arctic Fox / Nash, they said you might find a few dealers selling truck campers east of the Mississippi, but very few trailers. The 2013 hybrid we have now, it's a good size to tow (26'), easy to maneuver into many of the more rural state parks to explore. Been caught on some very narrow roads. This past August we were turning down the road to go to Jamaica State park In VT., well the single lane trestle bridge said "8 ton limit". I'm thinking crap what I'm I, Hum truck 6500-7000 trailer 5500.....12,000 lbs...OK 6 tons...Nice campground, but your not going to see a 42' motorhome go there.
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Old 12-26-2015, 07:24 PM   #32
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On our way home from Alaska next summer, I defiantly want to stop at a Arctic Fox dealer. They don't sell them east of the Mississippi. Also coming back from AK. I'm planning to take the Cassier route down thru BC. which when I went skiing up there a few years ago we did a 1200 mile loop of all the ski areas in British Columbia and couldn't believe all the RV dealers.
Our 2005 Aerolite over 7 seasons we camped 380 nights. We actually started looking maybe during the 5th season for the "next" RV. So it took 2 years before we settled on the one we have now (2013 Aerolite) going on 200+ nights.

Even once we found the floor plan we liked, it wasn't till 9 months late we bought it from a dealer 2 hours away. Our local Dutchman dealer at the time (15 miles away), was in no way willing to negotiate. They stuck to their price. Ended up getting it for 50% less out of pocket than their offer.

So it might take us a few years to find what will suit us, now that I'll be retiring in June. There will be a lot of back and forth between the wife and myself. But for the most part we agree on most items.

No hurry....People that finance or are at the mercy of the dealer to get them to a certain "payment amount" makes it easier for them to pull the trigger I think. They don't look at $24,999, they look at $275 a month for 10 or 15 years. But when you pay cash for your "next" RV you want to make sure it fits most of your needs, because it's your hard earned money and not the banks.
We took Hwy 37 on our way to Alaska this summer, it's a nice route, but you will want to keep your speed down, there hasn't been a lot of brush clearing along the road side. It dosen't give you much time to react when a deer or moose comes stumbling out of the bush.

If you have the time consider a trip to Haida Gwaii (formerly the Queen Charlotte Islands). It's about 90 miles by ferry from Prince Rupert.

Being as our dollar is in the tank right now, we'll be staying in Canada most of next year. We will be going to Haida Gwaii next year, NASCAR will just have to wait until our dollar recovers.

Yep, paying cash puts you in the drivers seat, the dealers hate it because it's they can't up sell you.
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Old 12-26-2015, 08:16 PM   #33
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Question? With the US dollar strong ($1.00 to $1.38) how busy do you think the Providential parks will be along the Alcan such as: Jasper (Whistler & Wapiti), St. John (Charlie Lake), Muncho Lake, Liard Hot Springs....

Will more Canadians stay put and you think more Americans because of the lower fuel prices and the exchange rate do a trip to Alaska in 16'.

Tentatively, I plan on 3 weeks to travel up to Alaska. One night or maybe 2 we might stop at a Provincial park, maybe one we'll just boon-dock and maybe the 4th we will do a private campground with electric.
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Old 12-27-2015, 06:10 AM   #34
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Question? With the US dollar strong ($1.00 to $1.38) how busy do you think the Providential parks will be along the Alcan such as: Jasper (Whistler & Wapiti), St. John (Charlie Lake), Muncho Lake, Liard Hot Springs....

Will more Canadians stay put and you think more Americans because of the lower fuel prices and the exchange rate do a trip to Alaska in 16'.

Tentatively, I plan on 3 weeks to travel up to Alaska. One night or maybe 2 we might stop at a Provincial park, maybe one we'll just boon-dock and maybe the 4th we will do a private campground with electric.
Without the dollar pressure the Provincial campgrounds are usually full on the weekends and long weekends are really hard to find a spot. If you don't mind travelling to a schedule, you can reserve sites in our provincial campgrounds.

We tend to stay away from the provincial campgrounds on the weekends, some of them a party central especially the long weekends.

The private campgrounds are not quite as busy and you can usually get a spot when you drive in. The campgrounds that are a little further out of the big towns and cities don't fill up as fast.

This link covers all the campgrounds, public and private. Campgrounds & RV Parks – British Columbia Travel and Adventure Vacations

We don't plan our travels, a hold over from our motorcycle touring days, so we do a lot of boondocking. There are lots of boondocking spots in the Yukon and Alaska and we met some very nice people when we were boondocking.
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Old 12-27-2015, 01:11 PM   #35
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Thanx...

I have read on other RVing websites about all the Caravan groups going up next summer to AK. Many leaving first or 2nd week in June. My worry is pulling into a private campground and they are full because the caravan group has all the available sites. I know the private campgrounds along the Alcan are only glorified parking lots, but we still may need one every few days. Need to dump the tanks, fill the fresh water tank, charge the battery, do laundry if needed.

Didn't realize that there are no dump stations at the Provincial campgrounds, or if they do, they charge even if you stay overnight at that park. Here in the Midwest (OH. PA. NY. VT. WV.) its a given all state parks have dump stations and don't charge if you camp there.
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Old 12-27-2015, 04:35 PM   #36
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Thanx...

I have read on other RVing websites about all the Caravan groups going up next summer to AK. Many leaving first or 2nd week in June. My worry is pulling into a private campground and they are full because the caravan group has all the available sites. I know the private campgrounds along the Alcan are only glorified parking lots, but we still may need one every few days. Need to dump the tanks, fill the fresh water tank, charge the battery, do laundry if needed.

Didn't realize that there are no dump stations at the Provincial campgrounds, or if they do, they charge even if you stay overnight at that park. Here in the Midwest (OH. PA. NY. VT. WV.) its a given all state parks have dump stations and don't charge if you camp there.
We came across a few caravan groups, but we managed to leap frog them when we caught up to them. The biggest traffic jam can be at the ferry to cross the river at Dawson City YT. It could take a few crossings if there is a caravan leaving at the same time.

Most of the caravan groups use the campgrounds that are closer to the towns. If you look for a campground well before or after a town you should be able to get a spot. On the days you want to use a campground start looking around 2-3 in the afternoon.

We have a 100W (2nd-100W waitng for spring to install) solar panel and never had to worry about charing the batteries while we were in the north. We look for laundromats in stripmalls, while DW looks after the laundry, it gives me time to do some maintenance and exercise the dogs. Also a good place to have lunch, DW starts the washers, while I make lunch.

Dump stations can be a challenge as can potable water, but there are a few municipally run stations and many of the truck stops that have them

There are not many of our provincial campgrounds that have power or dumpsites. We can usually go a week between before we get our tanks to the point that they need to be dumped. I cheat a bit, when we stop for lunch, if our grey water flush bucket is full, I'll dump the dish water in the toilets at the rest stop.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:52 PM   #37
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On the days you want to use a campground start looking around 2-3 in the afternoon
Does that apply to the provincial campgrounds and the few BC Crown land campsites too?

I have been following on YouTube "Chris & G Travels" and "Gone with the Wynn's" on their trips to & from AK. Also Sue Thomas (Yukon Sights). does extensive travel photography thru-out BC. YK. and AK.
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Old 12-27-2015, 11:07 PM   #38
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Does that apply to the provincial campgrounds and the few BC Crown land campsites too?

I have been following on YouTube "Chris & G Travels" and "Gone with the Wynn's" on their trips to & from AK. Also Sue Thomas (Yukon Sights). does extensive travel photography thru-out BC. YK. and AK.
The provincial campsite availability is dependent on the day of the week much of the time. Weekends become more of a challenge and the long weekends become really tough to get a site. That said, the part of the province and the location of any attractions will have an impact on availability as well. We found that the northern campgrounds don't fill-up as early in the day as the ones in the southern half.

We always try to stay away from the provincial campgrounds on weekends, we've had too many sleepless nights, when the parties carry on until the early hours.

By crown land campsites are you referring to our forestry camps? If so there are not many that you will drag a trailer into. Most of those are very primitive, with no facilities at all, they are usually near a small lake and the sites are small, more tent or truck camper sized.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:08 PM   #39
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formerly known as Forest Service recreation sites and trails, and were previously the responsibility of the BC Ministry of Forests.
According to the website they were formerly known as Forest Service recreation sites and trails, and were previously the responsibility of the BC Ministry of Forests. Here is a link to locations Crown Land Recreation Lands

Some are along the Alcan. Some give descriptions that motor homes can drive the access roads. Most give pictures of some of the campsites to get a idea of how tight the sites are. Example (St. John) I'm hoping the Milepost might touch on this for another camping option. Most say they have toilets (pit), tables, but no water.
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:39 AM   #40
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According to the website they were formerly known as Forest Service recreation sites and trails, and were previously the responsibility of the BC Ministry of Forests. Here is a link to locations Crown Land Recreation Lands

Some are along the Alcan. Some give descriptions that motor homes can drive the access roads. Most give pictures of some of the campsites to get a idea of how tight the sites are. Example (St. John) I'm hoping the Milepost might touch on this for another camping option. Most say they have toilets (pit), tables, but no water.
I forgot about those sites up there, a lot of recreation sites were created when the Bennett Dam was built. Again it is going to depend an the day of the week, I know a few party animals in Ft St John that used to spend a lot of time at those sites along Williston Lake.

The mountain we live on has the small sites on the backroads.
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