no 12 VDC to refrigerator circuit

[ilike55s]

OK,,the 3 way switch on ceiling does have 115 AC on center set of wires, and none on both end circuits,when toggle switch is in center position. putting toggle switch to right energizes the right circuit and ditto for the left circuit when in left position. My question here is "Did the factory do this type of rigging on other trailers or is this the work of the PO?"
I'm thinking one of these "side circuits" is the circuit goin to the microwave that keeps tripping the #6 breaker when AC power is hooked to trailer,,,,? NOW,,,here is my concern. I finally found the outlet for the microwave inside one of the cabinets and opened it up and you just cannot find a cheaper looking plastic outlet than what was in there,,,!!!!! I disconnected and removed the outlet then went to the 3 way ceiling switch and disconnected the three circuits from the switch,,,,,,,are you ready? the dang #6 breaker still tripped when I turned it on,,,!!!?_)(*)&&&^%^%$&*&)( What is going on??????
My feeble mind tells me, there has to be another circuit that has a short tied to this one somewhere,,,??
Does the furnace blower require 115 AC or 12 VDC? Dang,,,I wish I could look at a wiring Diagram,,,!!
SO,,,all you nice people are goin to have to put up with all my questions a little longer,,but I know we'll figure it out sooner rather than later,,,,,
OOPS, forgot to tell you, we went to the Alien city and homeless despot (I'm witch you now) did not have the circuit locator you mentioned, so I'ma goin to look in Ebay.

[sawpilot]

Doubt that this is factory wiring. What's happening here is 2 different appliances are being run off of 1 circuit breaker but only 1 at a time depending which way the switch is set. Now, when the #6 breaker blows, is there still power going to the center terminal on the switch. If so the #6 breaker is not connected to the switch. If not then you're narrowing it down to this circuit. But you disconnected all the wires from this switch so that isolated everything past the switch from the short. Here's how I would tackle this now.
1. Unplug the trailer and turn off all the circuit breakers.
2. Plug the trailer in. Nothing should "pop" as everything is disabled.
3. Turn on the circuit breakers one at a time and identify what appliance or set of outlets is now working. Keep good records.
4. Let us know what happens and we'll take the next steps.

The furnace blower is 12V.
What is the amp rating of the #6 breaker?
Electrical problems are just a matter of isolating the individual circuits and identifying a problem area. Then you fix it.
Sounds so simple but as you're finding out it can be very frustrating. Just take it slow and do one thing at a time so you don't confuse the issues.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by ilike55s

OOPS, forgot to tell you, we went to the Alien city and homeless despot (I'm witch you now) did not have the circuit locator you mentioned, so I'ma goin to look in Ebay.

Try Amazon...

Aaron

[ilike55s]

OK,,going to follow SawPilot's suggestions and will log in this PM with results. Finally made contact with Dutchmen tech and on new fridge not working,,,he suggests : "Take it out of cabinet and turn it up side down for a couple of hours",,,,he says sometimes the ammonia coolant tries to set up during long times of inactivity,,,,,Hmmmm,,,OK,,,? I don't know so what does the group think,,,??? All I got to lose is some labor in a hot trailer and since the frodge has not offered to cool down,,,it's coming out anyway.,,!! Shame for a brand new fridge to act like this ain't it???
Chargin on,,,,

[sundancer 87]

My thoughts on turning the thing upside down is bull crap. It may have worked many years ago when the smallest of the small refrigerators were stuck in cab over camper shells and Scotty 8 footers. That's what they called burping the unit, as if an air bubble somehow managed to get into a pressurized closed system. Usually the problem was caused by an unlevel refrigerator not allowing all the chemicals to flow back into the tank.

I don't know how a gas and a liquid can set up. I'd be more inclined to start looking at the orifice for restriction or the burner tube being blocked or low gas pressure at the orifice. As much saw dust that's left in these things it could possibly have found its way into the burner tube thereby causing a partial blockage and low flame height. On a calm day you should be able to hear the flame standing at the exterior access panel. Spider webs and other junk can get in there. I'd start at the flame height and color before I'd drag the unit out of the rig. I'd check the water column gas pressure, I'd also use an IR thermometer and check the tube temperatures where it exits the chimney. I'd check the chimney for partial blockage.

It's a new unit but no telling how long or where it sat before install.

[sawpilot]

As you say, all you have to lose is a little labor. This was a common cure for fridge's a while back. Sundancer has some great suggestions but do you know how to do these things? If you don't mind the labor burping the box might be the easiest thing for you to do. If that doesn't work maybe Sundancer will jump back in and talk you through some of these things. if you're running on propane absolutely look at the flame. It should look like a strong, blue pilot light. Just my thoughts. Keep at it and you'll know that thing inside out.

[sundancer 87]

Until 18 months ago I lived full time in Mexico with gas refrigerators. I had replaced a few absorption units on my various brands of refrigerators. No one down there to work on them so a trip to Tucson was necessary for major repairs. I had the chance to work side by side with a gas mechanic while he repaired my unit. I learned many things from him except how to recharge the system. The recharge sequence was akin to a mad scientiest doing an experiment.
Another gas mechanic in Tucson in another shop shared his experise from time to time. In all those trips to these guys I never saw a unit up side down in their shops. It's normally more than burping a system to get them going again.

[sawpilot]

Originally Posted by sundancer 87

Until 18 months ago I lived full time in Mexico with gas refrigerators. I had replaced a few absorption units on my various brands of refrigerators. No one down there to work on them so a trip to Tucson was necessary for major repairs. I had the chance to work side by side with a gas mechanic while he repaired my unit. I learned many things from him except how to recharge the system. The recharge sequence was akin to a mad scientiest doing an experiment.
Another gas mechanic in Tucson in another shop shared his experise from time to time. In all those trips to these guys I never saw a unit up side down in their shops. It's normally more than burping a system to get them going again.

I thought you might have more experience with these things than you let on. You've chimed in on multiple threads where the fridge was in question. Good to know there is someone here with some hands on knowledge. How do you check the water column pressure? I get the IR thermometer, but what kind of reading should you get? When mine messes up (and it will) I'll call you first.

[sundancer 87]

Low Pressure Test Kit by Marshall Excelsior Com : RV Parts Nation I had one of these for years, a good tool to have for diagnosing regulator problems and verifying proper pressure throughout the gas scheme.

We can't see much of the back of the refrigerator when it's in place but once it's out all the tubes are exposed. The one to check for temperature is the one that runs parallel to the chimney and comes out of the top of the insulation package. The chimney continues on and this tube turns to the left and starts its way towards the top of the absorption unit. It's carrying the percolated chemicals and will be the hotest at the turn out. That temperature (if I remember correctly) should be around 140 degrees, the reason for the IR thermometer. That temperature pretty much verifies the burner and its components and the perc tube are working as necessary.

[ilike55s]

OK,, spent some learning time verifying what exactly is on each circuit and was close but in a situation like this,,,,close just ain't good enough. I can't imagine who pencil'ed in on the breaker chart, which circuits were where,,,,,,,But they are CORRECT , now,,!!!! OK,,,you knew I would have some more questions, Huh,,??? Please allow me just a few more questions,,,OK??
1. The far left breaker is a 30 amp marked MAIN,,,? I did the check out with a drop light and none of the wall outlets or any of the appliances were hot after flipped up,,,??? What is MAIN?
2. #2 breaker is a 20 amp and energizes the roof Air Conditioner. The 3 way toggle switch on ceiling "IS" for the AC but I could not identify what the right hand position on the 3 way was for.
3. breaker #3 is a 15 amp and energizes two wall outlets in kitchen plus a GFI in bathroom plus the one wall outlet in living room. This seemed odd to me as this energized a circuit on "each side" of coach. Hmmmm,,??
4. Breaker # 4 is a 15 amp and energizes fridge plus three wall outlets in Bedroom.
5. Breaker # 5 is also a 15 amp and energizes the hot wtr heater plus the stove vent plus the converter. Now this one is a puzzler to me, as every time I would flip this breaker,,,the hot wtr htr would light, even tho the toggle switch at htr was in "OFF" position,,,????? WTH,,,? think toggle switch is shorted open?? I'll attach that one first thing.
6 Breaker is the one that had the microwave but that circuit must of suffered some damage when the tree fell on trailer, so I abandoned that circuit as PO had already installed a short cord and tapped into adjoining wall outlet.
7. What I'm thinking is,,,,separate the converter from breaker #5 and run it from breaker #6 Sound like a plan??
Well, my Brother helped me get the fridge out, no problem,,,and it is upside down for an hour or so, then I'm goin to run a temporary line from my BBQ grill tank to the fridge and test it before re-installing. If it works,, it's goin back in the hole. If not then it's goin on Craigslist and,,,,AND I'ma go to lookin,,,,
Charging on,,,, Many, many thanks for all the help and encouragement, Guys

[sawpilot]

You've done a good job. It's nice to know what everything is, isn't it. Ok the breaker marked MAIN is the master breaker. You have 30 amp service coming into the coach. Flip the main breaker off and you turn off all AC(120V) power.
The #2 breaker for the Air Conditioner is proper at 20 amps. That 3 way switch is apparently for a second A/C like I think Sundancer said yesterday. A single A/C draws 20 amps so this circuit won't handle 2 at the same time. Hence the 3 way switch. One or the other. I've not seen a setup like this before but I've certainly not seen everything. I would now say that it is probably factory installed.
#3 breaker sounds right also. Both sides of coach? Yeh, that isn't unusual. Don't even think they plan this like a house.
#4 sounds proper also.
#5 breaker also OK. Seems a little light at 15 amps, I think mine is 20, I'll have to check. When you say the water heater "lights" when you flip this breaker on do you mean on propane or AC power?
Is breaker #6 also 15 amps. If so go ahead and tap the converter into it. Obviously don't use any of the wiring past the breaker as this seems to be one of the problems.
If you can check out some of the things Sundancer talked about this afternoon you might save yourself some bucks instead of buying a new fridge. But all in all you've learned a lot about your coach.
One think you didn't mention. Is the #6 breaker still popping when you plug the trailer in? When you switch it over to the converter remove the wires from the output of the circuit breaker and plug it in. If it doesn't pop you can pretty much be certain there is damage from the tree and tie off those wires. You've learned a lot about your trailer. Congratulations! Its lots of work but you'll be happy that you know this system now. Post any other questions and let us know how it works out.

[wahoonc]

Rolling ammonia based refrigerators on their sides and upside down is SOP. called "burping". The systems are tiny and just a couple of air bubbles or some ammonia "thickening" is enough to cause it to stop working. I have "resurrected" a couple of supposed dead fridges this way. On larger systems (household size and up) this isn't an issue. I was at a plant the other day where the ammonia system holds over 25,000 gallons...

Aaron

[sundancer 87]

This will help with the switch confusion in case you need or want to replace it. This is just information for you and not to be intended to be a forum eggspert post.

The switch is commonly called a double pole/double throw switch. They are available in toggle switch form and your residential form.

The two sides of the switch where the screws are are the poles. The action of the switch, ON/OFF is the throw.

Essentially you can control four different circuits with the switch connected to two different power sources. Each side of the switch/pole is its own switch.

I only offer this because if you go to the local home improvement storeand ask for a 3 way switch you will get something completely different.

RV ownership is sooooooooooooooo much fun, especially when everything works!!!

[ilike55s]

Hey sawpilot, wahoonc, hddecker and sundancer,,, you guys were amazing,,!! I finally got the Dutchmen electrical all straightened out, thanks to you fine gentlemen. The wiring is CORRECT now and everything works, except,,,,,,,
The Chairman and I are rearing to go up to the mountains, so we're goin to use a small apartment 120 VDC fridge for this trip as the Norcold fridge is still not cooperating, even after it making friends with the grass while rolling around on the lawn,,! The small line that goes into the insulation has "cooled" somewhat, but just can't seem to be able to make it over the hump and start circulating. I've been checking Craigs list for something reasonably close, but no dice yet. Only one RV place in a 100 mile radius to me and they don't even have a new one. I'ma goin to keep lookin tho.
Again, many thanks for you Guys help and hope I can help you all and others here. What a great site,,,!!!

[sawpilot]

That's what these sites are all about. Helping each other when we can. Glad you got most of it figured out.

[sundancer 87]

We have to stick together to get these problems solved.

[hddecker]

Originally Posted by ilike55s

Hey sawpilot, wahoonc, hddecker and sundancer,,, you guys were amazing,,!! I finally got the Dutchmen electrical all straightened out, thanks to you fine gentlemen. The wiring is CORRECT now and everything works, except,,,,,,,
The Chairman and I are rearing to go up to the mountains, so we're goin to use a small apartment 120 VDC fridge for this trip as the Norcold fridge is still not cooperating, even after it making friends with the grass while rolling around on the lawn,,! The small line that goes into the insulation has "cooled" somewhat, but just can't seem to be able to make it over the hump and start circulating. I've been checking Craigs list for something reasonably close, but no dice yet. Only one RV place in a 100 mile radius to me and they don't even have a new one. I'ma goin to keep lookin tho.
Again, many thanks for you Guys help and hope I can help you all and others here. What a great site,,,!!!

Glad things are getting better.

If you have a local independent guy, you might give him a shot. We have a guy here that has been around since day one, he works on everything, including fridges. He offers a 2 year warranty on the fridges that refurbishes.

Check for independents in your area, they usually don't charge as much for labor and they are a good sounding board. He has set me on the right course with a few things that I was having trouble with and should me how to do the fix. I like to support the little guys whenever I can and when you build that relationship it pays dividends.

[desertjoe]

Well,, the Chairman and I went on a short trip up to the mountains and everything worked flawless. Had a great time just taking it easy and piddleing at the place up there.
The dang fridge still bothers me. I have turned it upside down, sideways, on every side,,nothing. One time when I had it on it's right side,,I had a piece of a 1 X 2 and was tapping on the coils and reservoir and I "heard" a "gurgle" like some liquid going around a curve and ,,,,and nothing! The small diameter line that goes into box will get cooler than ambient but that is all,,,
I got a quote from an RV place for a rebuilt unit for $1400 bucks but that is a bit too steep. Their service dept DOES NOT work on these units, only replace,!!
Anybody got any more words of wisdom?

[Camper2b]

Originally Posted by desertjoe

Well,, the Chairman and I went on a short trip up to the mountains and everything worked flawless. Had a great time just taking it easy and piddleing at the place up there.
The dang fridge still bothers me. I have turned it upside down, sideways, on every side,,nothing. One time when I had it on it's right side,,I had a piece of a 1 X 2 and was tapping on the coils and reservoir and I "heard" a "gurgle" like some liquid going around a curve and ,,,,and nothing! The small diameter line that goes into box will get cooler than ambient but that is all,,,
I got a quote from an RV place for a rebuilt unit for $1400 bucks but that is a bit too steep. Their service dept DOES NOT work on these units, only replace,!!
Anybody got any more words of wisdom?

I have a slightly used Norcold model 1210 4 door I will make you a good deal on if interested. Send me a message if interested.

[desertjoe]

PM sent, thanks