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Old 02-17-2019, 06:57 PM   #21
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Batteries are batteries, period. That same battery without the RV tag on it will probably cost less when sold as a normal Li battery. A battery doesn't know where it will be used so the operation will be the same as in an automobile, motorcycle, boat or RV.

Suited for RV use they say, that certainly puts it in a special category that allows for a price increase.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:13 PM   #22
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Batteries are batteries, period. That same battery without the RV tag on it will probably cost less when sold as a normal Li battery. A battery doesn't know where it will be used so the operation will be the same as in an automobile, motorcycle, boat or RV.

Suited for RV use they say, that certainly puts it in a special category that allows for a price increase.
Sure. Yes. All of it. The LION 12-volt batteries can be used in a host of applications, including RV but also for dump trailers etc. Of course, you are talking all things being equal. 12 Volt, 6 Volt, and 24 Volt batteries have some differences to be aware of. People pick engine start batteries a little differently than house batteries. Lithium, although a little more costly up front, has distinct advantages (differences) compared to FLA.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:23 PM   #23
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I was merely pointing out that tags such as RV and Marine don't make a battery.

After living 20 years in a solar house I've replaced a few battery banks and have experienced the tags put on batteries. Unfortunately FLAs were the flavor of the day. At 60 lbs per unit renewing a bank of 6 was costly and back breaking.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:25 PM   #24
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I was merely pointing out that tags such as RV and Marine don't make a battery.

After living 20 years in a solar house I've replaced a few battery banks and have experienced the tags put on batteries. Unfortunately FLAs were the flavor of the day. At 60 lbs per unit renewing a bank of 6 was costly and back breaking.
Agreed. I'm not sure who brought up the RV tag thing. But yes - you are correct. There is a lot of marketing hype to wade through. That's cool the solar and battery experience you've had!
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:16 PM   #25
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my experience with Lithium batteries

I've been using the Battle Born Lithiums for almost 4 years, full time off grid, and like them so much that now I'm a dealer for Battle Born. I'm sure the Lion Energy batteries are good also, but I like the fact that Battle Born is made in the USA, and their customer service is unsurpassed. Here are some interesting things I've found about Lithium batteries:

1) You need to invest in a VERY secure battery box (or mount them indoors). You don't want these batteries to be stolen! Also, tell your RV insurance company about them so that they will be covered if stolen. I have $4000 worth of Lithiums in my 5er, which raised my rates slightly but darn well worth it.
2) They will probably outlast your camper. Take 'em out and put regular lead acid batteries in when you sell the camper. Put them in your next RV, or, if you are not buying another RV, the batteries are more valuable for you to sell them directly to your RV friends. I suspect you will actually hand these batteries down to your kids or grand kids!
3) Almost all standard chargers work to charge these batteries, but they are not very efficient. Most lead acid chargers attempt to be gentle on a (lead acid) battery, which means they will charge a Lithium much more slowly than necessary. In many cases, the RV wiring is undersized for the charger to battery connection (nearly all low to medium end RV's do this), which causes the on- board charger to not work well. In the case of the WFCO, wiring is often the real problem. I found that the WFCO will stay on BULK for about an hour, then go to ABSORPTION. Absorption is only 13.6V, which doesn't do a lot for a Lithium battery, they prefer 14.4V. If you flip the breaker off then on (or remove generator/shore power and re-connect) it will go back to BULK for another hour. This helps Lithiums charge faster. The Power Dynamics chargers have a button for “FAST CHARGE” that does the same thing. NOTE: I have a 24V, 200AH, 5KWH battery bank with a 24V, 100A, 2.5KW charger. I rarely need it, but my 5KW generator will bring my battery bank from pure flat to fully charged in a little over 2 hours. Try that with a lead acid, and you will cook it for sure!
4) Your truck to Trailer 7-way plug will NOT charge your trailer very efficiently. The 7-way plug only puts out about 13.6V (most of the time) which will only put a few amps into a Lithium, and maybe 5-8A into a Lead Acid. There is no easy fix for this, because the truck wiring is simply not big enough to provide more. I have designed and built power boosters but they simply blow the truck fuses because the truck wiring is too small. Of course, you could always re-wire your truck, then add a booster.
5) Good Lithiums with a BMS cannot be overcharged. They shut themselves off. They cannot be undercharged, they shut themselves off. If you accidentally short them, they will shut themselves off. If you are not going to use them for a long period, in general, leave them at about 80-90% State of Charge. It may cause SLIGHT degradation to leave them fully charged or undercharged, but we are talking losing like a few hundred cycles from the rated 5000 cycles, so you don't really need to worry about it.
6) Heat is the number one thing that degrades a Lithium battery. If you have a black battery box on the trailer tongue sitting in the AZ sun, you are degrading this battery. The simplest thing is to shade the battery box. Of course, mounting them inside the RV solves the heat, cold and theft problems nicely. 80F is not a problem, 110F is.
7) Cold is not good for any battery. Below about 32F, a good Lithium with built in BMS will not accept charge (but it will still provide charge). That is simply a fact of the chemistry of a LiFePO4 battery. A simple 12V silicon heater (about $15 on Amazon) connected to a switch, through a fuse, directly to the battery, will easily keep it warm on cold days. Wrap the battery box in Reflectix shiny side in for winter, shiny side out for summer. Don't forget to shut the heater off when the temps warm up above about 40F. If you are really clever, you can add a thermoelectric heater/cooler with a heat sink, to keep it either warm or cool.



Hope this is useful.

-Lee
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:45 PM   #26
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Hart Family,
I will be delighted to hear about your experience installing and using the lithium batteries. I read the information WFCO provides for your WF-9865. I think it will provide up to 65 amps of charging for the lithiums.
The built in battery management in the lithiums could be many different kinds of systems. I can easily imagine a configuration that would provide those 65 amps for the full time period needed to charge them. If the lithium battery salesman is trust worthy, I think you have a winner.
Keep us all posted.
Paul Bristol
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:32 PM   #27
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Hart Family,
I will be delighted to hear about your experience installing and using the lithium batteries. I read the information WFCO provides for your WF-9865. I think it will provide up to 65 amps of charging for the lithiums.
The built in battery management in the lithiums could be many different kinds of systems. I can easily imagine a configuration that would provide those 65 amps for the full time period needed to charge them. If the lithium battery salesman is trust worthy, I think you have a winner.
Keep us all posted.
Paul Bristol
I agree. Talk is talk, but I am interested to see how these REALLY work, especially with my WFCO converter. I am not worried about the battery's BMS...I think any weak link will be my converter/charger and/or wiring. So I will deal with that too, if needed. I am not necessarily counting on a full 65 amps from my converter for many of the reasons that have been expressed on this and other threads (wiring, etc.), but anything remotely close to 65 amps would do just fine for me.
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:50 PM   #28
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I've been using the Battle Born Lithiums for almost 4 years, full time off grid, and like them so much that now I'm a dealer for Battle Born. I'm sure the Lion Energy batteries are good also, but I like the fact that Battle Born is made in the USA, and their customer service is unsurpassed. Here are some interesting things I've found about Lithium batteries:

1) You need to invest in a VERY secure battery box (or mount them indoors). You don't want these batteries to be stolen! Also, tell your RV insurance company about them so that they will be covered if stolen. I have $4000 worth of Lithiums in my 5er, which raised my rates slightly but darn well worth it.
2) They will probably outlast your camper. Take 'em out and put regular lead acid batteries in when you sell the camper. Put them in your next RV, or, if you are not buying another RV, the batteries are more valuable for you to sell them directly to your RV friends. I suspect you will actually hand these batteries down to your kids or grand kids!
3) Almost all standard chargers work to charge these batteries, but they are not very efficient. Most lead acid chargers attempt to be gentle on a (lead acid) battery, which means they will charge a Lithium much more slowly than necessary. In many cases, the RV wiring is undersized for the charger to battery connection (nearly all low to medium end RV's do this), which causes the on- board charger to not work well. In the case of the WFCO, wiring is often the real problem. I found that the WFCO will stay on BULK for about an hour, then go to ABSORPTION. Absorption is only 13.6V, which doesn't do a lot for a Lithium battery, they prefer 14.4V. If you flip the breaker off then on (or remove generator/shore power and re-connect) it will go back to BULK for another hour. This helps Lithiums charge faster. The Power Dynamics chargers have a button for “FAST CHARGE” that does the same thing. NOTE: I have a 24V, 200AH, 5KWH battery bank with a 24V, 100A, 2.5KW charger. I rarely need it, but my 5KW generator will bring my battery bank from pure flat to fully charged in a little over 2 hours. Try that with a lead acid, and you will cook it for sure!
4) Your truck to Trailer 7-way plug will NOT charge your trailer very efficiently. The 7-way plug only puts out about 13.6V (most of the time) which will only put a few amps into a Lithium, and maybe 5-8A into a Lead Acid. There is no easy fix for this, because the truck wiring is simply not big enough to provide more. I have designed and built power boosters but they simply blow the truck fuses because the truck wiring is too small. Of course, you could always re-wire your truck, then add a booster.
5) Good Lithiums with a BMS cannot be overcharged. They shut themselves off. They cannot be undercharged, they shut themselves off. If you accidentally short them, they will shut themselves off. If you are not going to use them for a long period, in general, leave them at about 80-90% State of Charge. It may cause SLIGHT degradation to leave them fully charged or undercharged, but we are talking losing like a few hundred cycles from the rated 5000 cycles, so you don't really need to worry about it.
6) Heat is the number one thing that degrades a Lithium battery. If you have a black battery box on the trailer tongue sitting in the AZ sun, you are degrading this battery. The simplest thing is to shade the battery box. Of course, mounting them inside the RV solves the heat, cold and theft problems nicely. 80F is not a problem, 110F is.
7) Cold is not good for any battery. Below about 32F, a good Lithium with built in BMS will not accept charge (but it will still provide charge). That is simply a fact of the chemistry of a LiFePO4 battery. A simple 12V silicon heater (about $15 on Amazon) connected to a switch, through a fuse, directly to the battery, will easily keep it warm on cold days. Wrap the battery box in Reflectix shiny side in for winter, shiny side out for summer. Don't forget to shut the heater off when the temps warm up above about 40F. If you are really clever, you can add a thermoelectric heater/cooler with a heat sink, to keep it either warm or cool.



Hope this is useful.

-Lee
Thanks Lee. I am really glad to hear from an actual tried/tested user. Battleborn sounds great too. Lion Energy are actually local to me here in Utah, but I will be curious to know where they are made. $750 for a 100 Ah battery is such a good deal.

Otherwise, here are just few additions I can make, generally in the same order as your good points:

1. I agree that I would hate to lose my one 100 Ah battery, but on my travel trailer, I may not have an easy option. For now, I plan to keep the battery in the regular black box on the tongue as normal. No one should "know" that I have a nice battery in there. My OTHER option is to bring the battery inside into our insulated pass-through storage somehow (due to zero emissions, this is possible). For the temperature reasons you cited, I wouldn't mind figuring something out. As you said, the BMS should not even allow the battery to accept a charge if the battery itself is 32 F or below. So I will look into an insulated deal...relflectix is not a bad idea BUT the new roll of Reflectix I just bought does NOT have a shiny/dull side. BOTH sides are shiny. ??? Also, have you ever seen any special slightly larger battery boxes to accommodate lithium batteries with some insulation???

2. My RV insurance company won't care about the new batteries. It is a $22k rig insured for $30k to cover replacement cost, inflation, tax and all the doo-dads I've added (such as this battery). I only need one, and it is "only" $750. The difference in my rates from $22k to $30k was like an extra $2 per year.

3. My particular WFCO is suppose to be in bulk charging mode for 4 hours, but again, I will verify/research that too. Four hours would be plenty for me to recharge my lithium battery daily from something not typically more than 50% DOD to a near-full charge.

4. Not too worried about my truck's 7-pin charger....I didn't even realize until recently that it charged at all. haha

5. I understand the purpose of a good BMS, but I got lost on your comment about not having them be "UNDERcharged". I agree that the literature states that it might be slightly better to NOT fully charge a lithium battery, but would a BMS actually do something to prevent a full charge?

6. Our ambient summer temperatures here in Utah are between 90 and 100 for many weeks of the summer. I shade my battery box and LP tank box with a reflective sheet.
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:46 PM   #29
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Hart Family,
I will be delighted to hear about your experience installing and using the lithium batteries. I read the information WFCO provides for your WF-9865. I think it will provide up to 65 amps of charging for the lithiums.
The built in battery management in the lithiums could be many different kinds of systems. I can easily imagine a configuration that would provide those 65 amps for the full time period needed to charge them. If the lithium battery salesman is trust worthy, I think you have a winner.
Keep us all posted.
Paul Bristol
I was finally able to talk to a technical person at WFCO. I simply wanted THEIR perspective on using a lithium battery with my particular WFCO converter (especially in light of the fact that WFCO produces a lithium converter). They said it is NO problem whatsoever and that I should be able to enjoy the benefits of the lithium battery using the converter I have.

One comment he made that was interesting....the lithium converter they have is rated at 50 amps. Mine is 65 amps. He said you NEVER want to go DOWN in amperage rating as it will cause all sorts of electrical problems. I thought it was that you never wanted to go UP in amperage with what you have due to wiring etc. He said 'no' - I had it backwards.
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:08 PM   #30
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I am delighted to hear from WFCO that the WF-9865 will work well. Their website said AGM and Flooded only.
At 50 amp charging rate you should be able to charge from empty to full in a little more than two hours.
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:41 PM   #31
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Paul - yes - that is what they said today. Where did you see the AGM/FLA only text? I looked up all the specs for my converter, the brochure, and website, and did not notice that anywhere.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:56 AM   #32
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One comment he made that was interesting....the lithium converter they have is rated at 50 amps. Mine is 65 amps. He said you NEVER want to go DOWN in amperage rating as it will cause all sorts of electrical problems. I thought it was that you never wanted to go UP in amperage with what you have due to wiring etc. He said 'no' - I had it backwards.
I suspect that is because of the total 12 volt usage of the trailer. If you reduced the output of the converter you would run into being under powered. Most people forget that it is actually a CONVERTER/CHARGER, not just a charger.

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Old 02-23-2019, 11:19 PM   #33
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I was at the same RV SHOW and spent a lot of time quizzing the guys from Lion Energy as I was about to pull the trigger on Battle Born.

I ended up getting four from them. I have a 40ft toy hauler and need that much for the way we use them.

I found the Victron Energy 712 battery monitor that I will be adding to my trailer to know the true input/output and real state of charge.

Being local in Utah and the Lifetime Warranty is what pushed me toward the purchase. If I sell the trailer I will keep the batteries and move them to the next trailer.

In my case I have been moving this direction in phases and have a nice inverter and solar already in place.

I am excited to see how this upgrade goes.
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Old 02-23-2019, 11:34 PM   #34
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I was at the same RV SHOW and spent a lot of time quizzing the guys from Lion Energy as I was about to pull the trigger on Battle Born.

I ended up getting four from them. I have a 40ft toy hauler and need that much for the way we use them.

I found the Victron Energy 712 battery monitor that I will be adding to my trailer to know the true input/output and real state of charge.

Being local in Utah and the Lifetime Warranty is what pushed me toward the purchase. If I sell the trailer I will keep the batteries and move them to the next trailer.

In my case I have been moving this direction in phases and have a nice inverter and solar already in place.

I am excited to see how this upgrade goes.
Yeah. These batteries would last a long time. I haven't picked mine up yet...will probably do that this week.

The only thing that has me only slightly concerned is the rule of no charging at 32 degrees F or colder. That is typical of nearly all LFP batteries. HOWEVER, Relion has a 100 Ah battery that CAN be charged below freezing. Some proprietary technology that feeds a warming charge to the battery using its own energy and then charging from there. However, the battery is $1300 or more.

What are you plans to potentially charge your new battery when it gets that cold?
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Old 02-23-2019, 11:50 PM   #35
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Yeah. These batteries would last a long time. I haven't picked mine up yet...will probably do that this week.

The only thing that has me only slightly concerned is the rule of no charging at 32 degrees F or colder. That is typical of nearly all LFP batteries. HOWEVER, Relion has a 100 Ah battery that CAN be charged below freezing. Some proprietary technology that feeds a warming charge to the battery using its own energy and then charging from there. However, the battery is $1300 or more.

What are you plans to potentially charge your new battery when it gets that cold?
The cold here in Utah does concern me but the BMS will resume charge once the batteries get up to 40f they told me. Use of the batteries generates some heat so that might be enough.

If that doesn’t work I have two strategies, first I will try some 12 volt thermostat controlled battery warmers, if that doesn’t work I will relocate the batteries inside the trailer. While in use the trailer won’t ever be below 32f where the BMS would cut the charging off.

We don’t Camp a lot in the winter but do on occasion so I am going to need to experiment.
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Old 02-23-2019, 11:55 PM   #36
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Agreed, but even on a summer night up in the Uintas, you could get a cold snap. One of the worst snow blizzards I have been in was near Mirror Lake in August.

That's interesting about 40 deg F.... I know the BMS will not 'allow' charging below 32, but I didn't know it was set to 40. Hmmm...

Also, I had looked into some 12 volt silicon battery warmer pads. They are all over and mostly cheap. However, I don't really know how to use them or how to power them (hook them straight to the battery?). Also, many of them say 'not for lithium batteries', but not sure why.
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:31 AM   #37
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40f is when it will resume charging, providing power to your trailer will continue to -5f. Battle Born also has this feature.

Battle Born sells some thermostat controlled battery warmers so I know they are out there for lithium. Maybe the guy that is the Battle Born Rep can chime in about how they work?

From how I “think” they work is you stick them to the batteries with adhesive and connect them to directly to the batteries and then the thermostat does it’s thing if needed.

We camp in upper elevation during the summers and have experienced what you describe with freak weather as well.
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:09 AM   #38
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40f is when it will resume charging, providing power to your trailer will continue to -5f. Battle Born also has this feature.

Battle Born sells some thermostat controlled battery warmers so I know they are out there for lithium. Maybe the guy that is the Battle Born Rep can chime in about how they work?

From how I “think” they work is you stick them to the batteries with adhesive and connect them to directly to the batteries and then the thermostat does it’s thing if needed.

We camp in upper elevation during the summers and have experienced what you describe with freak weather as well.
I couldn't find the Battleborn heaters you cited. Send a link if you come across them. I found a lot of battery heater wraps for car batteries, so I don't know why those wouldn't work in a pinch inside an insulated battery box. Most of those have a regular AC plug like in your home, so would need an inverter? (battery > inverter > heating blanket > wrapped around battery to warm it up). Hmmmm... Getting a little crazy now.. haha
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:20 PM   #39
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This information is very timely. I bought a new Kodiak two years ago and quickly became frustrated with the battery setup. Added a solar charging system last year, including upgrading to six gauge wiring but the battery continued to under perform. It would charge up as expected but not hold a charge properly. My suspicion is that the battery which came with the unit was of an inferior quality or had been allowed to zero out and simply would no longer do a good job of holding a charge - or both.

So, come this spring, my plan was to upgrade to a much better battery plus buy a Honda generator. Now, as a result of reading this, I am going to be looking into possibly going lithium instead. The generator is still something I will likely get but have to wonder just how much it will be needed with a good solar system in place.
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Old 02-26-2019, 06:51 PM   #40
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Batteries don't know what they are in . . .

Beware of stationary (telco type) batteries, they can't deal with the vibration and bumps in a vehicle or RV!
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