Tire Pressuer -- TPMS - Dutchmen Owners

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Old 07-17-2016, 09:59 PM   #1
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Tire Pressuer -- TPMS

I just finished installing and had my first trip using a TPMS system with sensors on all wheels. It apparently is working OK, but I had several questionable things I couldn't quite figure out.

First, I had to program Max and Min pressures for each sensor. Using the manufacture specs I had one pressure for my dually truck front tires, another for the rears, and yet another for the toyhauler. What I didn't know and guessed at is what the setting thresholds are supposed to be. So I set minimum at 5 psi below the spec'd cold pressure and the max at 10 psi over that same cold spec'd pressure. On my 500 mile weekend round trip the pressures stayed mostly within the ranges I programmed. They were usually up 5 to 6 psi while driving most of the trip. However, on the interstate in the hot sun the temps went up a fair amount and one of the trailer tires hit 10 psi over and triggered an alarm. I pulled over and let some air out to un-trip the alarm signal. My question is, just what kind of threshold limits should I set? How much should the psi go up when the tire get hotter? Cold rated at 80 psi should max out at what pressure when hot?

That brings up the temperature question. I left the factory alarm trigger at the preset. I think it is 157. I'll have to check the book and confirm. Both the rear tires of my truck and all of the toyhauler tires ran between 96 and 102 on the interstate in the bright hot sun and a little cooler on the back roads. My front truck tires ran the hottest. They were 12 to 15 higher than the other tires all of the time. Are these normal type readings or should I be seeing something else.
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Old 07-17-2016, 10:12 PM   #2
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I've just ordered a Tire Mender for my 6-month old TT after 3 blowouts on a recent excursion, so I'm anxious to read your replies.
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Old 07-17-2016, 10:12 PM   #3
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What brand TPMS are you using? I have Tire Minder...I have not messed with the temps, as I am sure I would be alerted to an over inflation first.

Been thinking of getting sensors for my truck's tires.

Cale
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Old 07-17-2016, 10:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by calewjohnson View Post
What brand TPMS are you using? I have Tire Minder...I have not messed with the temps, as I am sure I would be alerted to an over inflation first.

Been thinking of getting sensors for my truck's tires.

Cale
I have the TST (Truck System Technologies) 507 system. I also bought the range extender\repeater which I don't apparently need. I did not install the repeater and everything worked fine on this trip.

TST -- 507 Starter System Kit - Starter Systems, Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems - Truck System Technologies
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Old 07-17-2016, 11:58 PM   #5
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Yeah, your pressures & temps look similar to mine. I also have the TST system, and have been using it for over a year now on myF-450 & RV Goodyear G614 tires.

My thresholds for PSI are similar as yours, but I set my minimum to 6, and my max to 20... knowing that under load and high speed (75-80mph), they're going to heat up & raise pressure.
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Old 07-18-2016, 12:54 AM   #6
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I like your signature block. I have a 2013 3200 Voltage Epic II, 2014 F450 Platinum, and I haul a 2012 Can Am Spyder RT.
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Old 07-18-2016, 12:55 AM   #7
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From your post,
They were usually up 5 to 6 psi while driving most of the trip. However, on the interstate in the hot sun the temps went up a fair amount and one of the trailer tires hit 10 psi over and triggered an alarm. How much should the psi go up when the tire get hotter?

Try this copy and paste for the Goodyear RV tire guide. There is information on pressure increase

goodyearrvtires.com/pdfs/tire-care-guide.pdf
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Old 07-18-2016, 04:30 AM   #8
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1. DO NOT BLEED air out of a hot tire.
2. Pressure changes with temperature by about 2% per 10 F
3. I would set the high pressure warning at +20%. If it goes off slow down.

For TV the Cold inflation pressure is based on measured load =10%
For TT the Cold pressure should be the pressure on the tire sidewall.

If you review the tire placard / Certification label you will see the MFG suggested inflation is reasonably close to my numbers.

Don't worry about the TPMS temp reading as it is good at 157F (70C)

Read the posts on TPMS on my blog. Too much info to re-write here.
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Old 08-16-2016, 01:14 PM   #9
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What is normal?

Back to my original post..... After running a few thousand miles using the TPMS I still have a couple questions I find conflicting answers to.

1) Is it normal for my TV front tires to run 10 to 20 over the temperatures of tall of the other tires on the rig, including the trailer?

2) How high of a pressure over the rated sidewall cold pressure can the tire go when it heats up going down the highway? Example is if my trailer tires are set at a cold pressure of 80 psi which is also stamped on the sidewall, what is the max they should raise from heat while going down the highway before I need to slow down or stop to let them cool?

For years I never had these concerns....... then I bought the TPMS.
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DR Buck View Post
Back to my original post..... After running a few thousand miles using the TPMS I still have a couple questions I find conflicting answers to.

1) Is it normal for my TV front tires to run 10 to 20 over the temperatures of tall of the other tires on the rig, including the trailer?

2) How high of a pressure over the rated sidewall cold pressure can the tire go when it heats up going down the highway? Example is if my trailer tires are set at a cold pressure of 80 psi which is also stamped on the sidewall, what is the max they should raise from heat while going down the highway before I need to slow down or stop to let them cool?

For years I never had these concerns....... then I bought the TPMS.
As long as you inflate the tires to the cold preasure on the sidewall and your load is well balanced, your tires can handle the increase in pressure from the heat build up.

I would expect the front tires to have more heat gain than the rear, they are doing a lot more work than the rear. Your steering axle is continuously changing direction however slight, add to that the effects or steering components as they wear and alignment issues. We don't feel those subtle little changes as they occur, it just feels normal because it happens so slow.

We are becoming slaves to technology and allowing it to dumb us down. I've been tempted to get a TPMS, but I know if I got one I would start getting lazy and relying to much on it.
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Old 08-17-2016, 02:34 PM   #11
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In general tire temperature is a function of load and speed. If you are seeing tires on one axle getting hotter and seeing more pressure increase, I would interpret that as indication the tires may be a bit more loaded.

Have you had your unit weighed by individual tire position (bets practice) If not then at least get individual axle loads, assume a side to side load split closer to 53/47 than 50/50.

You can review a number of posts on my blog on Load, Inflation and Temperature to understand the topic more.

RE max pressure increase
Tire engineers know and design for pressure and temperature increase of properly loaded and inflated tires.
I previously suggested the TPMS high pressure warning be set to +20%. Tires can tolerate more but if you get a +20% on pressure I would suspect something is not right. Maybe your CIP is too low to start with.

TV and TT have different CIP requirements.
Basically TT tires should run the tire sidewall inflation while TV can use measured tire loads and the Load & inflation tables to learn the MINIMUM inflation then add 10% to the MIN to learn the CIP.
More details on my blog


RE TPMS setting I have the default low pressure on my MH set to the minimum inflation (MH inflations are established like TV inflations based on measured load)
My TPMS min is 25% below the base point so it took a bit of calculation. My TPMS has a "Radid air loss" warning that goes off if I loose a few psi over 3 min from the hot pressure so I get an early warning.
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Old 08-17-2016, 02:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by hddecker View Post
As long as you inflate the tires to the cold preasure on the sidewall and your load is well balanced, your tires can handle the increase in pressure from the heat build up.

I would expect the front tires to have more heat gain than the rear, they are doing a lot more work than the rear. Your steering axle is continuously changing direction however slight, add to that the effects or steering components as they wear and alignment issues. We don't feel those subtle little changes as they occur, it just feels normal because it happens so slow.

We are becoming slaves to technology and allowing it to dumb us down. I've been tempted to get a TPMS, but I know if I got one I would start getting lazy and relying to much on it.
Jim I consider TPMS as just another vehicle monitor gauge jsut as I do the oil pressure or water temp gauge. I could just check the dip stick for oil and look at water level each AM but that says nothing about any change while driving.
Tires get punctures and valves can leak (sometimes because you checked the air that AM)

TPMS wlil not "prevent" 100% of the tire failures but can warn you or slow leaks that can result in a Run Low Flex Failure i.e. "Blowout" which can cost you hundreds to thousands in RV damage. Just how many TT owners first learn they have a flat on the trailer when some passing car waves them down? Much better to get the early warning and be able to pull over before damage occurs.

Air loss is probably the cause of 50 to 80% of tire failures so a properly functioning and set-up TPMS may "prevent 50 to 80% of the serious tire problems on The road.
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Old 08-17-2016, 06:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
In general tire temperature is a function of load and speed. If you are seeing tires on one axle getting hotter and seeing more pressure increase, I would interpret that as indication the tires may be a bit more loaded.

Have you had your unit weighed by individual tire position (bets practice) If not then at least get individual axle loads, assume a side to side load split closer to 53/47 than 50/50.

You can review a number of posts on my blog on Load, Inflation and Temperature to understand the topic more.

RE max pressure increase
Tire engineers know and design for pressure and temperature increase of properly loaded and inflated tires.
I previously suggested the TPMS high pressure warning be set to +20%. Tires can tolerate more but if you get a +20% on pressure I would suspect something is not right. Maybe your CIP is too low to start with.

TV and TT have different CIP requirements.
Basically TT tires should run the tire sidewall inflation while TV can use measured tire loads and the Load & inflation tables to learn the MINIMUM inflation then add 10% to the MIN to learn the CIP.
More details on my blog


RE TPMS setting I have the default low pressure on my MH set to the minimum inflation (MH inflations are established like TV inflations based on measured load)
My TPMS min is 25% below the base point so it took a bit of calculation. My TPMS has a "Radid air loss" warning that goes off if I loose a few psi over 3 min from the hot pressure so I get an early warning.
True, with speed is friction (heat) and ambient temperature at various times of the day. I have checked temps in the mornings, low 80s...drive through the day to 100+ temperatures, with the road surface being in the 140's. That temperature increase alone is going to affect the tires, loading or not. That is what he is concerned about.

Cale
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Old 08-17-2016, 07:33 PM   #14
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Regarding tire temperatures; coming back from Sturgis, 21,000 lbs on my Westlakes running at 62 mph, at gas stops, I take tire temperature with my temperature gun and I run between 108 and 114 degrees. Normal? (I'm getting rid of the Westlake's after this last trip to Florida and back this year despite normal wear and no issues (fingers crossed) after 9,000 miles). Getting your tires I think Cale.
Rusty
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Old 08-18-2016, 04:57 PM   #15
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Rusty, Got about 12K on my Westlakes, Now have about 3K on the Sailun's, you will love those tires, The weight, the sidewalls, etc.
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Old 08-18-2016, 05:14 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by lcv800 View Post
Regarding tire temperatures; coming back from Sturgis, 21,000 lbs on my Westlakes running at 62 mph, at gas stops, I take tire temperature with my temperature gun and I run between 108 and 114 degrees. Normal? (I'm getting rid of the Westlake's after this last trip to Florida and back this year despite normal wear and no issues (fingers crossed) after 9,000 miles). Getting your tires I think Cale.
Rusty
Sorry but surface temperatures of tires can be off by 30 to almost 90F from the critical location in a tire i.e. internal structure at belt edges.

TPMS will give reasonably accurate (+/- 1 to 3 ) psi reading that can be used to compare to ambient. Tire pressure changes by about 2% for a change of internal air chamber temperature of 10 F.

As a tire engineer I would be much more concerned with pressure changes than TPMS or surface temperature changes. Only time I was using temperature was in racing with our needle probes that were accurate to +/- 2 to 3 F and were reading the hottest (most critical) location. Took some serious training to learn where and how deep to probe. We only had a few seconds to get the critical temperatures on 3 locations on each of 4 tires.
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Old 08-18-2016, 05:16 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by calewjohnson View Post
True, with speed is friction (heat) and ambient temperature at various times of the day. I have checked temps in the mornings, low 80s...drive through the day to 100+ temperatures, with the road surface being in the 140's. That temperature increase alone is going to affect the tires, loading or not. That is what he is concerned about.

Cale
The heat is generated not from road friction but of the cyclic bending of the rubber structure at the belt edges.
External ambient only affects the ability and rate of a tire to shed heat.
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Old 08-18-2016, 05:19 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by hddecker View Post
As long as you inflate the tires to the cold preasure on the sidewall and your load is well balanced, your tires can handle the increase in pressure from the heat build up.

I would expect the front tires to have more heat gain than the rear, they are doing a lot more work than the rear. Your steering axle is continuously changing direction however slight, add to that the effects or steering components as they wear and alignment issues. We don't feel those subtle little changes as they occur, it just feels normal because it happens so slow.

We are becoming slaves to technology and allowing it to dumb us down. I've been tempted to get a TPMS, but I know if I got one I would start getting lazy and relying to much on it.
Tire inflation using the tire sidewall pressure is only correct approach with multi-axle trailer or if a tire is loaded to its max load capacity.
Trailers have different needs than motorized vehicles so there are different guidelines for the different type vehicles.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:51 PM   #19
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My head just exploded !

Really though this is good stuff. For a guy that has spent years in a high tech industry building and operating satellites I'm learning the simple things in life really aren't that simple once you dig into them. Several years ago I worked closely with a contractor engineer who's expertise was thermal dynamics. This topic and the responses help me understand why she was the way she was.

Dave
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:31 AM   #20
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Rusty,

Love the Sailun tires. A cheaper alternative to the 17.5 tire/wheel combo. I may do that one day, but bank account could not take that. I have about 12k on them and they still look great.

Cale
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