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Old 11-06-2015, 05:08 PM   #1
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RV Certification Lables

I finally got a return call from the CSA Group to get some answers to some nagging questions.

I asked about the certification process, re-certification and if they have ever revoked a certification.

The answers:

Certification - CSA Group receives a request for a manufacturer for a certifcation. The manufacturer pays the fees, provides the product that is built to meet every standard and regulation that applies. The CSA Group tests the product(s), if they pass the manufacturer has just won the lottery. The company now has the right to buy and apply the CSA Certification decals.

Re-certification - Never happens. CSA Group only certifies, it does not verify compliance once they have passed a product.

Certification Revocation - Never Happens. CSA Group only certifies it does not have any regulatory authority.

In a nutshell kiddies the only way we will get any improvement in quality from the THOR Industries of the world is to start the complaint process with the regulating bodies and get the complaints piled up so they have to take notice and do something.

So being as the CSA Decal is for all intents useless why bother. Buy the product document and photograph every major defect that violates the applicable code.

I will be starting with the Electrical Authority in BC and carry on with to Gas Authority, then our version of the NHTSA.

It's great getting grey, I don't give a rat's behind about raising crap for what I feel is right anymore.

Sorry Aaron, I'm going to borrow your tag line. There is a madness to my methods.
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:42 PM   #2
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Makes one ponder exactly who is the CSA. I know, a certification agency but what are their qualifications?
Same as RIVA, I have that sticker that says the hauler meets the requirements of the RIVA standards but who sets the standards, former employees of the RV industry?


Smells like the rabbit watching the carrot patch to me.
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:26 PM   #3
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Makes one ponder exactly who is the CSA. I know, a certification agency but what are their qualifications?
Same as RIVA, I have that sticker that says the hauler meets the requirements of the RIVA standards but who sets the standards, former employees of the RV industry?


Smells like the rabbit watching the carrot patch to me.
The CSA Group is an worldwide certification organization, with offices and testing facilities worldwide.

United States | CSA Group

There is limited information on their site for the public consumption, so I said WTH, I'll phone them and get the answers I am looking for.

I also have RIVA decals as well, but as far as I know they the manufacturers group.

Products imported to Canada require a CSA or UL Certification showing they meet Canadian standards.

I would be interested in knowing if the US based certification organizations operate in the same manner and their story.

Rabbitts/carrots or foxes/chickens, same thing, it's a free for all for the manufactuers and buyer bend over and kiss your hinnie goodbye.
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:05 PM   #4
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"Supposedly" the RVIA standards are based on NEC and NFPA codes.

Quote:
RVIA maintains an inspection program to monitor compliance of the plumbing, heating, fire and life safety, and the electrical systems of the RVs manufactured by its members in conformance to the ANSI/NFPA 1192 standard for RVs.
from the RVIA website.

Obviously all the members in good standing built perfect units.

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Old 11-06-2015, 08:48 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
"Supposedly" the RVIA standards are based on NEC and NFPA codes.

from the RVIA website.

Obviously all the members in good standing built perfect units.

Aaron
After studying both and enforcing the NFPA during my 20 year stint as a firefighter I can say the only thing they come close to complying with is the fire extinguisher requirement by the NFPA and as far as NEC compliance they don't even come close with a stray staple or three.

The manufacturers must build a 'model RV' to earn certification and then it all goes out the window.

For my fire marshal's exam we had to rewrite the NEC in terms a lay person could follow. Six months and a ream of paper later I got to flunk the test along with most of my classmates.
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:06 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by sundancer 87 View Post
...For my fire marshal's exam we had to rewrite the NEC in terms a lay person could follow. Six months and a ream of paper later I got to flunk the test along with most of my classmates.
Sounds like the exam was written by the lawyers we had at the FAA...
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Old 11-07-2015, 10:00 AM   #7
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For the police exam they just gave us a sharp crayon and told us to keep it between the lines!
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Old 11-07-2015, 12:54 PM   #8
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Yep, and you fellers did a fine job out there.
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Old 11-07-2015, 03:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
"Supposedly" the RVIA standards are based on NEC and NFPA codes.

from the RVIA website.

Obviously all the members in good standing built perfect units.

Aaron
Aaron,

Thanks for the link to the RVIA site. If I have the correct understanding of the RVIA role as per their web site, they are the Secret Handshake Society for the industry. They play a monitoring role to ensure that OEM parts and accessories (electrical, propane, ect, the suppliers are providing to the RV manufacturers). They mointor and test these products for compliance to the applicable Standard as set out by the regulating body.

The RVIA is basically a self interest group that focuses more on the promotion of the industry and they have no role in the setting of any of the applicable standards.

The Recreation Vehicle Industry Association: Events

Still leaves a nagging question, who is watching the the rabbitts and foxes?

But the real nagging question I had when I started looking into this is; Who is responsible to ensure the applicable standards are applied and enforced.

So far the only answer I have gleed is nobody. It is a complaint driven process and the complaints have to be directed the regulating body for the individual systems (electrical, gas, etc).

Glad it's winter and I have too much time on my hands, a fresh toner cartridge, a new box of printer paper and 2 new rolls of postage stamps. I this sort of thing, I go old school and use snail mail. E-mails and phone calls are too easy to ignore, after all I did a pretty good job at doing that myself when I was still working.

If I don't get the answers I am looking for over the winter months, I'll always have the days when we are travelling between destinations. After I spend a day on an Interstate going for destination to destination I like to let of steam, what better way than to vent your frustrations.
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Old 11-07-2015, 05:52 PM   #10
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Aaron,
I'll be interested if following your quest. Keep us updated.

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Old 11-07-2015, 08:39 PM   #11
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Aaron,
I'll be interested if following your quest. Keep us updated.

Dale
It ain't me!

hddecker is going to be the one stirring the pot.

Aaron
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Old 11-07-2015, 08:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
It ain't me!

hddecker is going to be the one stirring the pot.

Aaron
Sorry, I was confused as usual. Your has been noted and graciously accepted.
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Old 11-07-2015, 09:42 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Fdhealy4 View Post
Sorry, I was confused as usual. Your has been noted and graciously accepted.
Oh I do my fair share of pot stirring. Just not worth my time to take on the world. I have enough to deal with at work.

I pretty much gave up on the manufacturers, retail and service people a long time ago. If they can't get it right the second time and continue with their apathetic views I go elsewhere. I have a long list of places, people and companies that I no longer deal with.

Case in point. I had issues with two different household appliances. One is long out of warranty and I had put some of their official replacement parts in. The original parts lasted over 10 years, the replacements less than two. I called them on their Customer Service line. They asked for a couple of pictures, then sent me replacement parts, priority overnight. That was for my Broan stove hood.

I had issues with my Frigidaire built Kenmore appliance that is still under warranty, the Sears guy claims he can't do anything with it, parts aren't available, yada yada. I have yet to hear back from Frigidaire. I have called, emailed and snail mailed. I found an after market parts source and have fixed the damned thing myself. Frigidaire and Sears are now on "The List".

Had an issue with my Kitchen Aid mixer, called them. It is an out of production model but they located the parts I needed. I had to pay for them, but they found them for me. They are on my list of companies to continue to deal with. And life goes on.

Aaron
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Old 11-07-2015, 10:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
It ain't me!

hddecker is going to be the one stirring the pot.

Aaron
Ya, but only in Canada. I know which pots to stir up here and if I PO them, they can't stop me from coming home.
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Old 11-09-2015, 04:05 PM   #15
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Guys, I get it now, The Company Builds one that has everything where it works, looks and performs great that took a couple months to build, then they pass with a hand that has something green in it, and then the Company builds ours in 2 weeks, with the left overs from the main one......
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Old 11-09-2015, 05:15 PM   #16
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Guys, I get it now, The Company Builds one that has everything where it works, looks and performs great that took a couple months to build, then they pass with a hand that has something green in it, and then the Company builds ours in 2 weeks, with the left overs from the main one......
Does it really take two weeks to build a TT? I watched a video of the manufacturing of a TT on YouTube and it seemed like they could knock one out in a couple of days.
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Old 11-09-2015, 05:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
Oh I do my fair share of pot stirring. Just not worth my time to take on the world. I have enough to deal with at work.

I pretty much gave up on the manufacturers, retail and service people a long time ago. If they can't get it right the second time and continue with their apathetic views I go elsewhere. I have a long list of places, people and companies that I no longer deal with.

Case in point. I had issues with two different household appliances. One is long out of warranty and I had put some of their official replacement parts in. The original parts lasted over 10 years, the replacements less than two. I called them on their Customer Service line. They asked for a couple of pictures, then sent me replacement parts, priority overnight. That was for my Broan stove hood.

I had issues with my Frigidaire built Kenmore appliance that is still under warranty, the Sears guy claims he can't do anything with it, parts aren't available, yada yada. I have yet to hear back from Frigidaire. I have called, emailed and snail mailed. I found an after market parts source and have fixed the damned thing myself. Frigidaire and Sears are now on "The List".

Had an issue with my Kitchen Aid mixer, called them. It is an out of production model but they located the parts I needed. I had to pay for them, but they found them for me. They are on my list of companies to continue to deal with. And life goes on.

Aaron
[QUOTE=wahoonc;33765]Oh I do my fair share of pot stirring. Just not worth my time to take on the world. I have enough to deal with at work.

Not the world, just the companies that provide crappy service a products.

I'm just don't have the subtle approach you have. I like you two strikes and they out, out and gone.I always like to pass how I was treated along. You know that pay it forward thing. I get a certain sense of satisfaction about some of the companies that did me dirt, didn't outlive me and I like to think I may have played alittle part in there demise.

I grew up in the days when a man's word was his bond and a handshake sealed the deal. I bought our first house with a $1.00 deposit a receipt for my dollar and a hand shake. I just can not get to the point where I can accept crappy products and deceptive business practices that seem to be becoming the norm.

On the other side, we have companies like Titan, that have a great help desk and it's nice to be able to deal with someone that is in the same generation as I am. The gentleman that I dealt with had retired from Titan, after a few years he and his wife had ticked everything of their bucket list. He says what now? I'll loved my job, so I'll go back to work.

He was very knowledgeable about his products, took the time to run through his check list to make sure that I had done all of the required checks.

As I was about to say good bye he asked me for my e-mail, he wanted to send me a newly revised manual along with a field troubleshooting guide.

It seems that the 12V power supply fuse issue has been added to the toubleshooting chapter. Then he asked me if I would tell him where I live, as he likes to go home, get out his atlas (what's that) and plot where the people he dealt with that day live. My generation.

I will take on the world when there are products being produced that can have a direct impact on my families safety. Like the pinched brake wire that is shorting out, or the 120v electrical wires being left to chafe on frame members ans screws.

It's baffling to me that we will report defects like exploding air bag inflators, defective ignition switches. But we just say oh well that's the way the RV industry operates so I'll just fix it my self and carry on.

Maybe if we report enough of the important stuff to show there is a problem and Uncle Sam starts hitting some of them with hefty fines that have been handed out in the auto industry in the recent past we'll see an improvement in overall manufacturing.

The RV industry is the only industry that I am aware of that passes the buck like they do. Not our problem we didn't build the axles, we didn't build the frame, we didn't build this, we didn't build that you' ll have to deal with the supplier.

Can you imagine the auto industry saying we didn't build the air bag inflator so deal with Tanaka. Because of when I live and the amount of wild life on the roads the first thing I did was deactive the air bags. Unfortunately I had to disable both of them, but I would sooner take my chances with a moose than an exploding air bag.

But that's just me.
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Old 11-09-2015, 05:46 PM   #18
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Guys, I get it now, The Company Builds one that has everything where it works, looks and performs great that took a couple months to build, then they pass with a hand that has something green in it, and then the Company builds ours in 2 weeks, with the left overs from the main one......
I think you mean they build hours in two hours.

But that's prettry much exactly what CSA told me. Once they certify a product they have no more interest in it. As NASCAR mandated a few years ago, "BOY'S HAVE AT IT." That went on until NASCAR was having at it alittle to much, so they bring the hammer down.

I would like to see some sort of an inspection process in place where the regulating authorities would do random, unannounced inspections.

Part of the Harley-Davidson succsess story has to do with giving everyone at an assembly station a pull chain to stop the assembely line when they see a defect. The line stops, the defect is fixed or the bike was taken off the line.

Worker moral improved, quality improved, production numbers went up and everyone was happy. When I toured the engine plant I asked a fellow at one of the assembly stations how often he pulls the chain. His answer was "not once in all the time that they were in place". The problem was a chrome rocker box that had a scratch, that engine went to a holding area, the rocker box was replaced, cleared that station and was loaded on the truck to go to the final assembly plant in PA.
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Old 11-09-2015, 07:54 PM   #19
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If they had those pull chain thingies at Dutchmen...

First you have to have people competent enough to realize that something isn't acceptable.

We have a few guys in our organization that do crappy work and don't see a problem with it. Unfortunately no one is holding them accountable so it continues. Thank God I am out of that side of the operation. I had a reputation for being hard to work for. Funny thing is my core crew of guys knew better. They KNEW that I expected only the best, if someone or something screwed up, we fixed it right then and there. I also had one of the most loyal crews, because I had their backs. If we had a bad production day, it never was blamed on them.

One major difference between automobiles and RV's is the regulations in place. Motor vehicles have federal standards that they have to meet and are tested to make sure they meet those standards. The RV industry has a set of voluntary standards and they aren't tested. I wonder why...

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Old 11-10-2015, 03:45 PM   #20
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Guys, I have been some what Luck with my 20 years RVing, My first was a Lance Truck Camper, not one thing ever went wrong, then I had a 26ftTravel Trailer, Don't remember the make, but No Trouble, then to a 32ft Montana, all good here, then to a 39ft Fuzion, GET ME A TOTAL REPAIR CREW, from roof leaks to doors opening while you were driving, etc, Now my Voltage, Put about 20K miles, with Westlake tires, and only (1) Jack went bad, water pump, a couple lights out, couple drawers not closing, Side Molding( Plastic) started to come loose from the heat, replaced with rubber molding, so far so good...I guess it helps, that if I see a minor repair, I fix it quick, but the roads are so bad now, that after we get to a new place, we have to check everything, screws, cabinet doors etc, to see if its still in place LOL. I feel bad for some of us that have so many things go bad, It's NOT RIGHT, like some have said, You buy a car, most of the time, it gets repaired the right way, I have a good Dealer who did all the repairs with-in a month, but it took 6 months to get it in!! I wish we could get some better Regulations on these RV's, The Money we have to put out, is higher then most cars and Trucks, and then we add things to make it better.....I stopping now LOL
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